Kyosho Triumph Stock Buggy Racer

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Riv2SC10
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Kyosho Triumph Stock Buggy Racer

Post by Riv2SC10 »

I've got a thing for old buggies, I guess. After racing a Tamiya Hornet (yeah, I know), Kyosho Optima, and then Associated RC10 in the late 80's, I picked up a Kyosho Triumph in the spring of '91 (I think). We lived in Muskegon, MI, and raced at a variety of tracks that came and went around the area at that time. My family moved to Northern MN right after I bought the Triumph, where there was no organized racing within quite a distance, so it didn't get raced much until I graduated from college and moved to NW Wisconsin. I raced it in Eau Claire, WI for a couple of summers, and then "retired" from racing for quite a few years.

Anyhoo, I got back into racing several years ago, mostly with an SC10, although I did race my original gold pan a few times indoors on carpet and dirt and had a lot of fun with it. My nephew ran the Triumph for a while when he was getting into racing, but I got it back from him after he had graduated on to more modern rides. Now I've rebuilt it and am running it with the 17.5 buggy class at Rick's Hobby Farm in New Richmond, WI. My son ran it in a main in Sportsman when he broke his SCB and we couldn't get it back together for the main, and I ran it in 17.5 buggy the following race day. It's a bit off the pace, yet, due to a horrendous mid corner and corner exit understeer, but it held together well, so I called it a moral victory. Now it's time to get some more speed out of it!!!!!!!

I'll get some pics posted soon.
Nick

Kyosho Triumph, Stock Buggy Class Racer!!!
Gold Pan RC10, Jammin Diff Kit, Andy's arms, Robinson Adjustable Rear Arm Mount
Kyosho Optima, Belt Drive, Turbo Rear Arms, JG Rear shock tower
Kyosho Datsun 10

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Re: Kyosho Triumph Stock Buggy Racer

Post by R Cane »

Pictures, man, pictures!

Riv2SC10
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Re: Kyosho Triumph Stock Buggy Racer

Post by Riv2SC10 »

Here are some pics as it currently exists. My brother (and nephew???) painted the body. I don't know what body it is, but it's not the original Triumph body. I still have that, but like this one better. At least for now...... :mrgreen:

Stock 24 year old ribs on the front. I've tried saucing them back to life, but they are still part of the understeer issue. AKA Impacts on the back with some 5 spoke HPI rims that came with an Optima I bought on E-Bay several years ago. Stock shocks with "modern" small bore Kyosho pistons. Ho me made skid plate covering the tranny hole in the chassis made out of some thin copper plate that my supportive wife had in her crafting supplies. I'm limited on screw variety, and installing a thicker aluminum skid plate would have limited the amount of screw depth into the tranny, etc. Maybe it would matter, maybe not. Copper held up OK, considering it is copper, although will likely need replacement on regular intervals. I think it's a B2 or B3 wing. I just bought that a week or two ago, and forgot what it was already. Its a wing....

During it's time with my nephew, he broke the front chassis brace. My brother made the aluminum one in the pictures. Heavier than the original by a fair stretch, but the car is still right on the lower weight limit, and could use more weight up front, anyway.
Attachments
IMG_4275.JPG
IMG_4274.JPG
IMG_4273.JPG
Nick

Kyosho Triumph, Stock Buggy Class Racer!!!
Gold Pan RC10, Jammin Diff Kit, Andy's arms, Robinson Adjustable Rear Arm Mount
Kyosho Optima, Belt Drive, Turbo Rear Arms, JG Rear shock tower
Kyosho Datsun 10

Riv2SC10
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Re: Kyosho Triumph Stock Buggy Racer

Post by Riv2SC10 »

The Triumph came originally with a slipper and a BIG spur gear. The internal tranny (hard not to call it a gearbox) ratio is something around 2.215:1 IIRC, but that's not enough to make the thing fast with a 17.5 motor. There simply isn't enough motor positioning adjustment to get a big enough pinion installed to run a "stock" motor. Maybe Kyosho learned a lesson with the original rear drive Optima, which ran out of gearing the other way. I remember running a 9 tooth 32 pitch pinion in that with whatever monster brushed modified motor I ran with it in the 80s and it came off HOT and ran for about 4 minutes plus the remainder of the lap.

Back to the Triumph. I ended up drilling and tapping holes in the drive plate and screwing a 87t Kimbrough gear right to it. Sort of a slipper eliminator. There isn't much thickness for cutting threads in the drive plate, but it seems to be working so far. Threadlock is my friend with this one. Sort of like on an SC10 tranny. That being said, my machining skills aren't exemplary, and I have a slight amount of runout in the spur gear now, so I need to run the gear mesh a little tighter than I would like. I found that out the hard way after stripping two spurs; one during a bench test of the ball diff and one in practice before the first qualifier trying to get out from under an e-buggy who was stuck on top of me. Should've waited for help. Whatever the case, the thing made it through two 6 minute quals and an 8 minute main. The motor never came off at more than 115-120 deg F, so I think I can go up more on the pinion, but the 29t is the biggest I have for now. So, it's 29/87 on the pinion/spur at this point. It had decent speed. Like I said, the biggest issue is the push. Maybe once I get that improved, we can work on more gearing, but for now I'm happy with the speed.
Attachments
IMG_4250.JPG
IMG_4249.JPG
Nick

Kyosho Triumph, Stock Buggy Class Racer!!!
Gold Pan RC10, Jammin Diff Kit, Andy's arms, Robinson Adjustable Rear Arm Mount
Kyosho Optima, Belt Drive, Turbo Rear Arms, JG Rear shock tower
Kyosho Datsun 10

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Re: Kyosho Triumph Stock Buggy Racer

Post by rccars4sal »

You can get different front top plates to adjust front kickup. That should help in finding more front traction.

Riv2SC10
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Re: Kyosho Triumph Stock Buggy Racer

Post by Riv2SC10 »

Yah. I think you are talking about the blocks that clamp around the plate, correct? I was thinking about that, too. Kyosho only provided one set with the car, and one half of the set of 20 and 25 degree block sets. I haven't seen them in my limited searching on EBay, but they should be pretty simple to make.

Does anybody know if different caster blocks were ever made for the Triumph?
Nick

Kyosho Triumph, Stock Buggy Class Racer!!!
Gold Pan RC10, Jammin Diff Kit, Andy's arms, Robinson Adjustable Rear Arm Mount
Kyosho Optima, Belt Drive, Turbo Rear Arms, JG Rear shock tower
Kyosho Datsun 10

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_timmy_
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Re: Kyosho Triumph Stock Buggy Racer

Post by _timmy_ »

Its the top front plate that sits between the front shocks that the front body mount attaches to. Part no.'s are TM-20 - 20deg, TM-21 - 25 deg and TM-22 - 30 deg. They are slightly different lengths and are used to alter the front kick up.

I think there might also be different caster blocks available to....will have to check my box of bits to see whats there.

Riv2SC10
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Re: Kyosho Triumph Stock Buggy Racer

Post by Riv2SC10 »

Hmmm. My top plate came with the front holes elongated, and I thought the manual mentioned optional clamp block parts that allowed for kickup adjusment. I'll check the manual again. The aluminum top plate that's on the car now also has elongated holes (thanks to my brother). I tried using the 25° and 20° blocks in last night, and could get the 25° block to work, replacing the 30° block, along with the regular top block. This is getting hard to describe, so I'll try to get some pics tonight.

So, at the very least, I'm down to 25° kickup now, which should help the steering. The slotted holes in the front of the top plate aren't long enough for the 20° block to work, as it tips the front end forward, obviously.
Nick

Kyosho Triumph, Stock Buggy Class Racer!!!
Gold Pan RC10, Jammin Diff Kit, Andy's arms, Robinson Adjustable Rear Arm Mount
Kyosho Optima, Belt Drive, Turbo Rear Arms, JG Rear shock tower
Kyosho Datsun 10

Riv2SC10
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Re: Kyosho Triumph Stock Buggy Racer

Post by Riv2SC10 »

Woops. You guys are right, it is the top plate that would have to be changed. I don't know why I thought the clamp blocks needed to be changed. :roll: This actually makes more sense. I do know that the holes in my aluminum top plate are slotted enough to allow the 25 deg and 30 deg kickup to be used. Maybe that's not so good, as it might allow the kickup to move around a bit. The thicker aluminum top plate should be more rigid than the orignal CF one, so hopefully the movement will be minimal. I'm going to try it, although it'll be a while till the next race day. :(
Nick

Kyosho Triumph, Stock Buggy Class Racer!!!
Gold Pan RC10, Jammin Diff Kit, Andy's arms, Robinson Adjustable Rear Arm Mount
Kyosho Optima, Belt Drive, Turbo Rear Arms, JG Rear shock tower
Kyosho Datsun 10

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Re: Kyosho Triumph Stock Buggy Racer

Post by Mr. ED »

Plenty of space left to try more holes for the spur :wink:

Riv2SC10
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Re: Kyosho Triumph Stock Buggy Racer

Post by Riv2SC10 »

Yes, there is still plenty of room. I haven't needed it yet, though. The setup runs nice and smoothe considering there's a trace of runout, and it hasn't caused an issue.

I'm now running the 29/87 pinion/spur combo, and still could go up a tooth or two on the pinion based on motor temp after an 8 minute main. I raced it again last Saturday and made the following changes:

-Kickup from 30 to 25 degrees
-SS JConcepts Rips replacing the 25 year old stock ribs in front. Put open cell foams in the tires
-Softened shock package up quite a bit both front and rear, spring and damping both. Started the day with Durango Light Red Springs with 3A pistons in the front Gold shocks with 30 wt oil and AE Gold springs, 2B pistons, and 400 wt oil in the back. Goofy combination on paper, I know. It wasn't much better on the bench as the front was still sluggish compared to the back. I use a spreadsheet calculation for this stuff, and it appears as though I'm off somewhere in the calc. Last time out the front end was quicker on the bench rebound tests, and it appears as though I overcorrected.

The first two qualifiers were NOT good. The car was now able to steer, but transitioned from a push to an oversteer very quickly and was pretty dang difficult to drive. My fast laps were about a second faster (roughly 33.5 seconds on this large, dusty, slick and somewhat bumpy 1/10 and 1/8 track), but the average lap times were about the same as the last time out. For the second qual, I cranked the rear toe in from 1 to 3 degrees and moved the shock mounting in the front to the outer hole on the arm. Moving the shock like this stiffens up the front suspension by giving the spring more leverage, but the affect on the damping is even more pronounced due to the piston speed increasing. So, the front was still more sluggish than the rear. The toe helped reduce the average fast lap time and average lap time slightly, but it was still nowheres near good.

I figured it was time for drastic changes in the main. Sticking with the philosophy that if one change is good, two are better (yeah, I know), I put the front rake back to 30 degrees from 25 and replaced the light green Durango front springs with light red Durango springs (basically two steps stiffer. The balance was much closer on the bench, with the front end still a bit slower on the rebound test. Then I started looking at my radio settings and noticed that I had a whopping -75% expo dialed in on the steering!!!??? I'm not sure when I cranked that it, but I'm certain it wasn't intended to be permanent, and might have been a mistake. Thinking back, I know this was hurting me on parts of the track with mid-speed esses type turns and whatnot. Dialed it back to -25%. Crazy....

These changes made a world of difference with the thing. My average lap time dropped 3.5 seconds. I ended up competing with the TQ fella for third place. We were chasing down the 2nd place guy for a while before the leader came around to lap us and basically threw us off our rhythm. We both made a few mistakes at that point. Still, it was a close race for third and pretty dang fun. Ended up in 4th, but the old Triumph is now holding it's own in a regular stock buggy class with a bunch of other modern buggies. This is a pretty old school track with low traction, no blue groove, pretty rutted in spots, etc. I don't know how well it would do indoors on a high grip tighter race track, but for now I'm really enjoying racing it outdoors on a track that I can still throw some roost on.

Now its on to figuring out which changes made the biggest improvement. There is still a bit of push mid corner, the shock balance still isn't really where it should be, my thin copper skid plate needs replacing, etc. Unfortunately, I think I have another month or so before I can race again, but that means I have some time to get some of these things ironed out a bit better, I suppose.

Till next time....

Check your expo!!!!!
Nick

Kyosho Triumph, Stock Buggy Class Racer!!!
Gold Pan RC10, Jammin Diff Kit, Andy's arms, Robinson Adjustable Rear Arm Mount
Kyosho Optima, Belt Drive, Turbo Rear Arms, JG Rear shock tower
Kyosho Datsun 10

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Re: Kyosho Triumph Stock Buggy Racer

Post by Mr. ED »

By the way: I think that to change the front angle you're supposed to change the plate AND clamping blocks.
Otherwise, congratulations!

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Re: Kyosho Triumph Stock Buggy Racer

Post by EvolutionRevolution »

IIRC, there's a Lazer slipper part that lets you keep the slipper and use modern spurs (LA-118? Can't remember...)

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Re: Kyosho Triumph Stock Buggy Racer

Post by Riv2SC10 »

Thanks for the feedback, fellas.

Mr. Ed, I changed the bottom clamping block and used the stock upper clamping block. The aluminum plate has slotted holes that allow for the 25 and 30 degree kickup to be used. 20 degree is puts the lower clamp block holes to the front of the slotted holes. Granted, this setup relies on the clamping force and basically the stiffness of the top plate (which is significant here with this relatively thick aluminum plate) to hold the kickup at 25 degrees. I don't believe it moves, but can't really say for sure. I'm back to 30 degrees now, but am thinking about trying 25 degrees again in light of the extreme steering expo finding.

EvRev, thanks for the tip. If I was running a mod motor in this thing, I'd probably look into the Lazer slipper option. This is holding up pretty well with the 17.5, and has less rotating mass than a slipper. Going slipperless seems to be a common thing in stock buggy class. I don't beat on this like I do my short course truck, so I'm hoping it holds up well. The 87T Kimbrough spurs are cheap and plentiful, too.

My gear cover did manage to fall off again. It's been the only real significant issue from a durability perspective so far. My brother has offered to 3d print one, and I might take him up on it. Ironically, the fella that ran onto the track to pick up my gear cover (not a marshal) did so in front of my brother's airborn buggy and got nailed in the process. He wasn't hurt, and my brother was the guy that won the race, so it didn't screw him up too bad, either.
Nick

Kyosho Triumph, Stock Buggy Class Racer!!!
Gold Pan RC10, Jammin Diff Kit, Andy's arms, Robinson Adjustable Rear Arm Mount
Kyosho Optima, Belt Drive, Turbo Rear Arms, JG Rear shock tower
Kyosho Datsun 10

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