Is the Javelin next in line?

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Re: Is the Javelin next in line?

Post by Coelacanth »

I checked out the new Le Mans 240S brushless motor specs and it looks like a pretty mild motor...Kyosho was erring on the safe side, I'm thinking. I would be interested to see how that motor matches up with the original Le Mans 240SB brushed motor...my money would be on the 240SB, which was ridiculously fast on 8.4V 7-cell matched packs back in the day.
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Re: Is the Javelin next in line?

Post by Lonestar »

Coelacanth wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:09 pm I checked out the new Le Mans 240S brushless motor specs and it looks like a pretty mild motor...Kyosho was erring on the safe side, I'm thinking. I would be interested to see how that motor matches up with the original Le Mans 240SB brushed motor...my money would be on the 240SB, which was ridiculously fast on 8.4V 7-cell matched packs back in the day.

We can safely say that the original 240SB will be a joke compared to a modern 15.5BL... remember that in today's electronics, it's not just the motor, but the motor and the ESC and its timing management that makes the perf. The spec sheet on a BL motor is something you can't compare to a "simple" brushed motor one :) just to give bring some perspective, I mostly race boosted 13.5 on lipos on road. that's just a notch below 15.5 in performance terms.... and that's comparable to running a good to excellent 12x2 from 15 years ago. and that excellent 12x2 from 15 years ago would run circles around an 80's competition brushed motor ;)
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Re: Is the Javelin next in line?

Post by Coelacanth »

Lonestar wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:30 am
Coelacanth wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:09 pm I checked out the new Le Mans 240S brushless motor specs and it looks like a pretty mild motor...Kyosho was erring on the safe side, I'm thinking. I would be interested to see how that motor matches up with the original Le Mans 240SB brushed motor...my money would be on the 240SB, which was ridiculously fast on 8.4V 7-cell matched packs back in the day.

We can safely say that the original 240SB will be a joke compared to a modern 15.5BL... remember that in today's electronics, it's not just the motor, but the motor and the ESC and its timing management that makes the perf. The spec sheet on a BL motor is something you can't compare to a "simple" brushed motor one :) just to give bring some perspective, I mostly race boosted 13.5 on lipos on road. that's just a notch below 15.5 in performance terms.... and that's comparable to running a good to excellent 12x2 from 15 years ago. and that excellent 12x2 from 15 years ago would run circles around an 80's competition brushed motor ;)
Have you run a 240SB (*not* the far more common 240S or ST, which aren't nearly as powerful) on 8.4V? It was a beast. I have, and I've also run 11T, 12T, 13T and 13.5T EZRun/Tacon/Toro motors. I'd love to see a test comparing it to that brushless 15.5T...not just conjecture. ;)

Le Mans Motor Specs_B.jpg
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Re: Is the Javelin next in line?

Post by Basher67 »

The 240 SB was definitely a higher quality motor with bearings gold anodized endbells, etc. while the "ST" was the economy version. But more powerful? I thought they were basically rated the same with the 240 second battery time designation. Now I'm confused. I own both motors but have not run either so I can't speak from experience. I have no doubt that as both motors get runs on them the superior cooling of aluminum and low friction of the bearings will make the SB a clear winner, but if both are new, does the SB actually have more power? Are they the same wind? I've been considering the new kyosho brushless motors for their vintage looks but with brushless horsepower. Am I wasting my time? Should I just rebuild and run my 240 SB with a 7 cell Nimh and keep it real? 8) :lol: Sounds like we need some dyno runs for some real #s :mrgreen:

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Re: Is the Javelin next in line?

Post by Coelacanth »

I rebuilt a 240SB for display purposes, but I saw one race back in the day and it was up there with the Trinity Monster Horsepower motors. On 8.4V 7-cell matched Sanyos it was far more than I could handle...not that that's saying much, I wasn't a good racer.

The way I see the 15.5T Le Mans motor is it's meant to reliably power a re-re of a 30+ year-old powertrain (with chain drive option, no less) for mostly fun and entertainment...it's not an all-out racing motor. Kyosho wouldn't want people blowing out their new re-re cars' gears, and thus my take on the 15.5T specs is that it's powerful and fun, but safe. The 240SB was a race motor back in the day. From what I remember, Trinity used Kyosho motor parts in some of their race motor designs (endbells, at the least).

Until someone compares the two side-by-side, it's all talk, but I wouldn't be so quick to suggest the new 15.5T would run circles around the 240SB, nor any other race-bred 4-minute motor meant for 4WD racing back in the day. I have a nondescript mystery black can brushed motor with gold aluminum endbell that I bought from a fellow racer BITD, from the same era as the 240SB, installed in my Zebra Optima...it's marked 14 x 2...and that motor is just beyond the point of driveability. Those race motors weren't the equals to today's 10 - 13.5T brushless motors, but would probably give the 15.5T Le Mans motor a good go, I'll bet.
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Re: Is the Javelin next in line?

Post by Lonestar »

Coelacanth wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:30 pm
Lonestar wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:30 am
Coelacanth wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:09 pm I checked out the new Le Mans 240S brushless motor specs and it looks like a pretty mild motor...Kyosho was erring on the safe side, I'm thinking. I would be interested to see how that motor matches up with the original Le Mans 240SB brushed motor...my money would be on the 240SB, which was ridiculously fast on 8.4V 7-cell matched packs back in the day.

We can safely say that the original 240SB will be a joke compared to a modern 15.5BL... remember that in today's electronics, it's not just the motor, but the motor and the ESC and its timing management that makes the perf. The spec sheet on a BL motor is something you can't compare to a "simple" brushed motor one :) just to give bring some perspective, I mostly race boosted 13.5 on lipos on road. that's just a notch below 15.5 in performance terms.... and that's comparable to running a good to excellent 12x2 from 15 years ago. and that excellent 12x2 from 15 years ago would run circles around an 80's competition brushed motor ;)
Have you run a 240SB (*not* the far more common 240S or ST, which aren't nearly as powerful) on 8.4V? It was a beast. I have, and I've also run 11T, 12T, 13T and 13.5T EZRun/Tacon/Toro motors. I'd love to see a test comparing it to that brushless 15.5T...not just conjecture. ;)


Le Mans Motor Specs_B.jpg
this was 30years ago. The best $119.99 matched/zapped/handpicked batteries in the world back then would deliver 80% of the voltage under load that an entry level $19.99 cheapo-lipo delivers today....

you've run all kind of entry level brushless motors listed above... on my side, I've raced all kind of hi-end brushless motors with hi-end controllers for the past 10 years... and all kinds of hi-end brushed motors with hi-end ESC's the decade before that... and believe me when I say pretty much no motor from the 80's can hold a candle to anything BL modern especially with a properly setup controller, which drives a good 50% of the performance .

to top it off... the 240SB was a 19 turn as per the above spec sheet. not so long ago this millenium, 19 turn was an entry-level spec class... think about it ;)
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Re: Is the Javelin next in line?

Post by Lonestar »

Coelacanth wrote: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:26 am I rebuilt a 240SB for display purposes, but I saw one race back in the day and it was up there with the Trinity Monster Horsepower motors.
no kidding... it's the same motors. Trinity bought Kyosho's motor business...
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Re: Is the Javelin next in line?

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Re: Is the Javelin next in line?

Post by Lowgear »

Basher67 wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:57 pm I think it's awesome that they're making them again even though it will take away from the value and rarity of the originals.
This has been discussed on here to an extent in the past. I don't think reres will have a detrimental value effect on the originals as original is still original. The value will remain the same to the collector, and re-releasing a new model has no effect of the rarity of the originals. That is unless you have a time machine. :P

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Re: Is the Javelin next in line?

Post by Basher67 »

Sorry lowgear, but I don't agree. I've heard the arguments on both sides---much of it speculation. I can tell you, as someone who has bought and sold many vintage rc's over the years, that it absolutely has a direct affect on the market surrounding the vehicle that is re-released. "Detrimental" affect is a little strong and sort of indicates that our originals would have no value. Let's break it down to reality---If you have an original sealed/unopened Javelin, the value of your car will not change much at all because you have something that is undeniably genuine and rare and therefore will always command the big money to the right buyer. If you have a nice well kept shelf queen, you have an Optima with a rollcage and silver paint on the wheels. The rollcage on our Javelins, are in some cases, more valuable than the optima underneath them. Why do they command more money? Because THEY ARE UNAVAILABLE---period. You can't get a chinese copy or a rere cage. Before they were rereleased, I wanted a Tamiya Lunchbox to replace the one I had in my youth. At the time they were not plentiful and a good example might cost you around $300. Could you imagine spending that on one now? I can get a rerelease for a hundred bucks from a dozen or more major rc suppliers on ebay. In fact, they are so cheap and easy, that I have put off buying one, because its no challenge, and instead have spent money on the harder to find pieces that pop up. There may be a small difference between an original and a rere lunchbox, but the fact that I don't know what it is, makes me not care. Hell, look at the prices currently changing before our very eyes for RC10 parts. Hard to find and expensive team associated parts became no more valuable than the suggested retail price marked on the package as production was ramped up around the time of the rere RC10 and worlds editions to give buyers confidence in the parts support for their cars. Now, as production has slowed down and the rere's are not on the shelf anymore, parts are starting to dry up. As parts supply starts to dry up, the prices of RC10 parts are are once again on a serious rise. I went to my lhs to see what they had in white RC10 parts a couple weeks ago. They had nothing. They told me a guy from another hobby store from out of town had came and bought all they had and that AE had everything on "backorder".
This stuff isn't a matter of opinions. It is basic supply and demand. A rere will satisfy the demand for most. If this wasn't true---successful corporations like Kyosho and Tamiya, would not bother with producing them. They are not doing it out of a sense of nostalgia. So the few that will not be satisfied with anything but an original are now the only ones wanting our vintage cars. Ever sell anything on ebay?! If you have 10 potential bidders on your original RC and 6-8 of them buy a rere, what do you think that does to your final sale price? Remember, any item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it at any given time.---No matter what any book, website, or "expert" may tell you.
Ok, I'm stepping off my soapbox now. Sorry for the rant guys. Like I originally stated, I like rere's because it makes parts more available again and I can run a shelfer with confidence that I can replace broken parts at a reasonable price.

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Re: Is the Javelin next in line?

Post by AYKBOBCAT »

It's out at Tower... Two in the mail for me. :D :D

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Re: Is the Javelin next in line?

Post by orangemazda »

I just bought an original Javelin a few months ago for $500! I’m still going to get a rere. I’d never run my original because I know what it’s worth to me. It has sentimental value because I had one back in the day. I’m going to run the snot out of my new one because I can!

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Re: Is the Javelin next in line?

Post by Lonestar »

orangemazda wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:19 am I just bought an original Javelin a few months ago for $500! I’m still going to get a rere. I’d never run my original because I know what it’s worth to me. It has sentimental value because I had one back in the day. I’m going to run the snot out of my new one because I can!
exactly - similar looks, different cars from an emotional standpoint :)
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Re: Is the Javelin next in line?

Post by mikea96 »

Over at tamiyaclub there were some photos of the different colored roll cages and also of turbo optima wheels.

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Re: Is the Javelin next in line?

Post by Coelacanth »

mikea96 wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:06 pm Over at tamiyaclub there were some photos of the different colored roll cages and also of turbo optima wheels.
Interesting...I wonder what they'd consider charging for the colored cage sets separately? Although I have no interest building another Optima, it might be cool to build a car with red or blue ano parts and a green rollcage, for example.
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