Help Me Rebuild My Original RC10

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GodSpeed
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Help Me Rebuild My Original RC10

Post by GodSpeed »

Hi guys, new here. I recently found an original RC10 car, box, manuals, etc. in my parents' basement that my brother and I had as little kids in the mid-80's. It's a #6010 kit. *Personal disclaimer - I know virtually nothing about this stuff!

Now that I've begun to reassemble it, I've found that I'd like to keep much of it original and only update certain items such as the electronics systems and probably the motor as a result (I don't think our old Joel "Magic" Johnson Trinity motor will be compatible with new electronics and LiPo batteries, right?), but I've come across some slight issues between the original parts/kit and the re-release Classic kit. There are more than a few P/N's in my old manuals that are no longer available at all or have been changed to new numbers. I have read WebSteve's "differences" thread as well and have some questions of my own. Any help answering some questions for me would be great.

1. The shocks are bottom-build on mine, as you know. I think the new rebuild kit will work (that's a guess really...will it?) with the exception of the new kit retaining clip that goes on the inside. What I need to find is the proper sized 'C' clip to secure the nylon washers, spacer and red o-rings in the bottom. Are those 'C' clips easy to find? Will the new rebuild kit work in my old shock bodies? What's the solution here to rebuilding old shocks with current parts availability?

2. Should I replace the pistons as well while I'm at it? Are they a wear item?

3. I've read that I'll need a new rear bulkhead (same P/N as old mind you) to fit LiPo batteries because they're taller. I understand also that the new bulkhead doesn't have a bottom unlike mine. But with the taller battery cup, will that not raise up my rear shock tower and change the suspension geometry?

4. Will my old motor work with new electronics or are LiPo batteries and modern electronic systems incompatible with old brushed motors?

5. I think I will just use the original transmission for nostalgia and cost savings. I've read about Stealth transmissions but I don't know what they are, what their advantages might be and, furthermore, my old tub doesn't have the mounting holes for one, albeit I guess I could drill some but that, to me, sounds like I'd be butchering an original tub.

6. Anything else I really need to be aware of or should change/upgrade?

Thanks. I'm sure I'll have more questions as I work along.

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Re: Help Me Rebuild My Original RC10

Post by GodSpeed »

Here's some photos to make things more interesting --


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Re: Help Me Rebuild My Original RC10

Post by 85Edinger »

That's a very well preserved car.
You can use your old motor with a new ESC and a lipo, though you'd probably be better off with a new one anyway. I believe that motor is collectible. What speed control did you have before, an MSC?
You don't need a new bulkhead to run lipos. Any lipo with dimensions of 24 x 46 x 138mm will fit the original bulkhead. Most hardcase lipos are just a little too tall (25 MM instead of 24 or less) but there are many that squeeze in. Almost any softcase will fit too.
All you really need to rebuild your shocks is new seals. You can get 100 these from McMaster-Carr for about $3. McMaster is also a good place to order screws, and they have the c-clips for the shocks. If your shock shafts are scratched up, you may also want to either polish or replace the shafts.
The 6 gear can be a good runner transmission. You just need to build it right. You need full bearings, de-burred gears (either de-burr the original gears or buy some re-re internals), and 3/8 x 5/8 outdrive bearings. I don't know how durable the Re-re idlers are, but if you have any idler stripping issues, you can make steel idlers from a pair of outdrives.

One more thing: If you're taking the car apart anyway, and if you're going to run it, you may want to consider soaking the parts in near- boiling water. I have tried this and found that (as others have said) it does make the parts somewhat more flexible, and less prone to breakage.

I hope this helps.
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Re: Help Me Rebuild My Original RC10

Post by GodSpeed »

Thank you very much. I really appreciate you answering my specific questions.
85Edinger wrote:That's a very well preserved car.
It's been in its box in my parents' basement for 20 years probably! I actually don't think we really appreciated/understood the complexity of this thing when we were so young. I would have taken better care of it had I known (mostly cleanliness and corrosion prevention; nothing is actually broken).
85Edinger wrote:You can use your old motor with a new ESC and a lipo, though you'd probably be better off with a new one anyway. I believe that motor is collectible.

Cool. But maybe I'll just set it aside because of the potential collectible 'value' and get modern stuff to run.
85Edinger wrote:What speed control did you have before, an MSC?
Here's what we had. I find it odd that the box specifically says "Electronic Speed Controller Not Included" but then the manual has instructions on how to install and wire these exact servos/controllers --

Image

I remember always wishing we had this ESC pictured on the box mounted to the shock tower --

Image
85Edinger wrote:You don't need a new bulkhead to run lipos. Any lipo with dimensions of 24 x 46 x 138mm will fit the original bulkhead. Most hardcase lipos are just a little too tall (25 MM instead of 24 or less) but there are many that squeeze in. Almost any softcase will fit too.
Well that's good news. Interesting. I was questioning the need myself because where the bulkhead mounts to the chassis on the sides with the allen head screws it's a fixed point. If the battery cup needs to be higher for a bigger battery, the battery would still hit these mounting 'blocks' on the inside of the cup....unless the battery is only pushed in this far, in which case I could just trim the top of the existing cup and have battery straps secure it vertically. Make sense?
85Edinger wrote:All you really need to rebuild your shocks is new seals. You can get 100 these from McMaster-Carr for about $3. McMaster is also a good place to order screws, and they have the c-clips for the shocks. If your shock shafts are scratched up, you may also want to either polish or replace the shafts.
The seals meaning the red o-rings? Okay, thanks. I'm in Canada so I'm not sure about McMaster; I'll have to look. I think the local hobby shop from whom I was going to order any needed parts gets their stuff from Tower so I've been looking there....Here -- http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0005p?&I=ASCD6001&P=Z
85Edinger wrote:The 6 gear can be a good runner transmission. You just need to build it right. You need full bearings, de-burred gears (either de-burr the original gears or buy some re-re internals), and 3/8 x 5/8 outdrive bearings. I don't know how durable the Re-re idlers are, but if you have any idler stripping issues, you can make steel idlers from a pair of outdrives.
Oh, I guess I have some work to do here. I took it all apart and rebuilt it (with bushings, not bearings). All I seemed to have somehow misplaced was the #6628 diff. spring & nut, but it sounds like I should take a more serious crack at it, huh?
85Edinger wrote:One more thing: If you're taking the car apart anyway, and if you're going to run it, you may want to consider soaking the parts in near- boiling water. I have tried this and found that (as others have said) it does make the parts somewhat more flexible, and less prone to breakage.
Good tip. Thanks.

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Re: Help Me Rebuild My Original RC10

Post by 85Edinger »

That's an msc, not an ESC.
If your battery is too tall you can just cut off the top of the cup. I still suggest trying to get a battery that fits.
This goes into de- burring the gears.
http://www.rc10talk.com/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=3748
I would probably just order re-re gears, a set of bearings (including out drive bearings to replace the felt seals) and call it good.
When I built my 6 gear with steel idlers, it took me six hours! Most of that time was spent de-burring the top gears and outdrives to make them mesh with the idlers and not bind. Re-re parts would be much less labor intensive.
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Re: Help Me Rebuild My Original RC10

Post by GodSpeed »

So for the transmission:

#6900 Bearing Kit

#6612 Axle Drive Gear x 2

#6613 Idler Gears

#6604 Retaining Clips

What else? Should I be doing these as well?

#6618 Diff Shaft and Pinion?

#6617 2nd Pinion with Diff Tube & Hub?

#6623 Teflon Bushings?

#6627 Differential Thrust Bearing with Washers?

#6605 Transmission Case with Bearing Adapters (only way to get bearing adapters....used to be #6606 for adapters in old manual)?

Where do I stop? Keep going....?

#6634 Spur Gear (used to be #6653)?

#6626 Balls?

#6636 Special Diff Grease?

#6625 Diff Drive Rings have to be okay to re-use, right? They're essentially large washers. Mine look fine. Maybe a bit of discolouration (probably from heat...as a result of improperly lubed balls in the Spur Gear is my guess)

#6624 Diff Outer Hub?

#6628 Diff Spring and Nut (mine are missing)

And you're saying 3/8 x 5/8 outdrive bearings on the #6612 Drive Gears instead of the felt seals? Could you help with a P/N? I don't understand this part.

Since I'm going bearing crazy, how about #897 bearings for the #6374/#6365 rear stub axles and hub carriers? There appears to be a very specific cone shaped washer in my original manual with no specific part number. It's not mentioned in the new instructions; what do I do? #6373 spacers, 2 on the outside to mimic the cone? My old instructions say to use an inside washer with bushings but remove it with bearings. It still wants you to use the cone washer on the outside with bushings or bearings. There is no option for bearings on the front wheels it appears. I'm fine with that...this is adding up!

Please let me know what you think of this list and let me know if I don't need to do any of it. Also clarification on the outdrive bearings you mentioned.

THANKS!

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Re: Help Me Rebuild My Original RC10

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GodSpeed wrote:And you're saying 3/8 x 5/8 outdrive bearings on the #6612 Drive Gears instead of the felt seals? Could you help with a P/N? I don't understand this part.
My old Parts List Manual has a number #6903 - "Ball Bearings, Outdrive, 3/8 x 5/8 plain" but that number is no longer listed, at least on Tower's website.

Also, not important but interesting, this old manual has pricing. Most stuff is cheaper, as you can imagine since it's ~30yrs old, but the #6900 Bearing Kit is listed at $80.00! Now it's only $26.69

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Re: Help Me Rebuild My Original RC10

Post by 85Edinger »

So for the transmission:

Bearings: Don't buy Associated part 6900. $27 is outrageous for 8 metal shielded bearings. I suggest buying your bearings from Avid Rc if you want metal shielded, Avid bearings are $1 apiece. You can do the whole car for $18.

#6612 Axle Drive Gear x 2- $28, ouch.

#6613 Idler Gears $6.39

#6604 Retaining Clips- not necessary in you don't damage the originals, but may be a good idea.

What else? Should I be doing these as well?

#6618 Diff Shaft and Pinion?- You don't need the shaft, but you either need to buy this for the pinion or de-burr your original pinion.

#6617 2nd Pinion with Diff Tube & Hub?- same.

#6623 Teflon Bushings? Unnecessary. The originals are probably fine.

#6627 Differential Thrust Bearing with Washers? Same as above.

#6605 Transmission Case with Bearing Adapters (only way to get bearing adapters....used to be #6606 for adapters in old manual)? You certainly don't need a case. If you need bearing adapters (why would you? The originals are probably fine) I have extras.

Where do I stop? Keep going....?

#6634 Spur Gear (used to be #6653)? If you need a new spur I would go with a 48 pitch Kimbrough. Keep in mind you'll need a 48 pitch pinion.

#6626 Balls? These are also a good thing to buy from Avid instead.

#6636 Special Diff Grease? Yes, you'll need this or something similar.

#6625 Diff Drive Rings have to be okay to re-use, right? They're essentially large washers. Mine look fine. Maybe a bit of discolouration (probably from heat...as a result of improperly lubed balls in the Spur Gear is my guess) Re-use the originals.

#6624 Diff Outer Hub? Nope.

#6628 Diff Spring and Nut (mine are missing)

And you're saying 3/8 x 5/8 outdrive bearings on the #6612 Drive Gears instead of the felt seals? Could you help with a P/N? I don't understand this part. You need two of these:
http://www.avidrc.com/product/1/bearings/62/38-x-58-x-532-Revolution-R1038-RSZ-bearings.html

Since I'm going bearing crazy, how about #897 bearings for the #6374/#6365 rear stub axles and hub carriers? There appears to be a very specific cone shaped washer in my original manual with no specific part number. It's not mentioned in the new instructions; what do I do? #6373 spacers, 2 on the outside to mimic the cone? My old instructions say to use an inside washer with bushings but remove it with bearings. It still wants you to use the cone washer on the outside with bushings or bearings. There is no option for bearings on the front wheels it appears. I'm fine with that...this is adding up!
Rear wheel bearings: http://www.avidrc.com/product/9/standard-bearings/5/14-X-38-X-18-Flg-Metal-FR168ZZ-standard-bearings.html
Front wheel bearings: http://www.avidrc.com/product/9/standard-bearings/11/316-X-516-X-18-Flg-Metal-FR156ZZ-standard-bearings.html
These beat cone washers any day:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LX2561&P=7

Please let me know what you think of this list and let me know if I don't need to do any of it. Also clarification on the outdrive bearings you mentioned.

THANKS!


The clarification on outdrive bearings is in there.
Cost wise, it isn't bad as long as you don't overpay for bearings. You can get every bearing you need- for the entire car- for $18 total.
All-new transmission gears would be about $60 total. You can avoid that cost partially or completely by de-burring your originals instead.

Don't forget tires. I think re-re tires for your original wheels would be $25.

All told, minus electronics, you can get the car back together and working well for under $50.

Many of the questions you've asked have been answered elsewhere. Be sure to do some research.
Good luck, and be sure to post updates or any other questions.
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Re: Help Me Rebuild My Original RC10

Post by GodSpeed »

Wow, I really appreciate the help clarifying everything....and the tip about Avid.

Sorry that this has already been asked and answered elsewhere. I'm new to this but not new to forums and I understand the annoyance in the same questions being asked over and over.

I'll trim down my list, get the necessary stuff ordered and will post back with any additional specific questions.

More pictures too once I start making some headway again.

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Re: Help Me Rebuild My Original RC10

Post by 85Edinger »

I'm glad to help. It's not an annoyance, all the information can be a little overwhelming at first.
When I said that I would just get new transmission internals, I didn't realize it would come out to $60. After thinking about it more, I would get the re-release idlers for durability and de-burr the original pinions and outdrives.
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Re: Help Me Rebuild My Original RC10

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A couple more questions if you don't mind --

You mentioned "if you (me) need a spur gear"...

Well, I'd say I don't, but I didn't know I needed to replace all of these other gears either! Why am I doing this? :| Are the old ones burred from use and the new ones are going to be perfectly machined? Would this not then be the same reason to replace the spur gear?

For it, the 1/8 carbide diff balls from Avid are $1ea vs. the #6619 carbide ball kit from Tower for $7.29 so perhaps I'll go that route.

I understand the benefit and improvement I'll gain from replacing all of the bushings with bearings. I'll order the out drive bearings you helped with from Avid as well as a complete bearing kit for the wheels and transmission they have for $16. Thanks again for this lead!

Speaking of the out drive bearings (which replace the felt -- I still find this odd that bearings can be used in place of felt; in place of bushings, sure, but where only felt is the OEM part???) do I still install the #6633 plastic retainers or are they only if using the felt seals?

#6605 bearing adapters -- the reason I mentioned replacing these is because I'm wondering if when putting new bearings in (replacing the bushings) they might be loose...and that would be bad. Not necessary you don't think?

I've tallied my replacement parts list (which includes a new body and decals) and it's getting up there. Does the NIB Classic kit come with electronics!? They can be had for as low as $340. Not the same as rebuilding this thing, but I'm starting to question my sanity here. haha

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Re: Help Me Rebuild My Original RC10

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A couple more questions if you don't mind --

You mentioned "if you (me) need a spur gear"...

Well, I'd say I don't, but I didn't know I needed to replace all of these other gears either! Why am I doing this? :| Are the old ones burred from use and the new ones are going to be perfectly machined? Would this not then be the same reason to replace the spur gear?

The original gears are not burred from use. They are burred from the factory, which causes binding and stripped idlers. You don't need to replace all the gears, you can remove the burrs.

For it, the 1/8 carbide diff balls from Avid are $1ea vs. the #6619 carbide ball kit from Tower for $7.29 so perhaps I'll go that route.

I understand the benefit and improvement I'll gain from replacing all of the bushings with bearings. I'll order the out drive bearings you helped with from Avid as well as a complete bearing kit for the wheels and transmission they have for $16. Thanks again for this lead!

Speaking of the out drive bearings (which replace the felt -- I still find this odd that bearings can be used in place of felt; in place of bushings, sure, but where only felt is the OEM part???) do I still install the #6633 plastic retainers or are they only if using the felt seals?

You don't need the retainers. The bearings are a tight fit and stay by themselves.
The only odd thing is that they put felt there in the first place. The only reason I can come up with is that a bushing wouldn't work very well, or that metal shielded bearings would get too dirty there.

#6605 bearing adapters -- the reason I mentioned replacing these is because I'm wondering if when putting new bearings in (replacing the bushings) they might be loose...and that would be bad. Not necessary you don't think?
They wouldn't be loose. The shaft spins in the bushing. The bushing does not spin on the bearing adapter.

I've tallied my replacement parts list (which includes a new body and decals) and it's getting up there. Does the NIB Classic kit come with electronics!? They can be had for as low as $340. Not the same as rebuilding this thing, but I'm starting to question my sanity here. haha
The Classic kit has no electronics. How is it getting so expensive?

Tires: $25
Bearings: $18
Misc. Transmission parts: $15 (if you de-burr the original gears, that link shows you how)
Body, wing, paint: $20

That's $75 for a good roller. I didn't include decals, though. If you are on a really tight budget, you could probably re-use your old electronics.
Heck, if you're on a really, really tight budget, the old tires probably have a few runs left in them.
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Re: Help Me Rebuild My Original RC10

Post by GodSpeed »

That link is awesome btw. Did you do that modification where you attach the diff rings to the diff hubs?

I don't think I'll go that intense but...wow.

So new gears don't have burrs because of modern machining processes and therefore don't need the time/labour of manual debarring?

Do you know if #6617 for sure comes with the pinion gear? It shows that it does in the picture on Tower's site and it's listed that way in the re-release Classic kit instructions, but in the description on Tower's site it's not mentioned. I really don't need anything else from that P/N except the gear so it would suck to buy it and not get the one part I need!

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Re: Help Me Rebuild My Original RC10

Post by 85Edinger »

GodSpeed wrote:That link is awesome btw. Did you do that modification where you attach the diff rings to the diff hubs?
I haven't yet. Maybe sometime, but that would only affect diff smoothness. Reliability IMO is a bigger concern.
GodSpeed wrote: So new gears don't have burrs because of modern machining processes and therefore don't need the time/labour of manual deburring?
Correct.
When I suggested replacing all the internals, I didn't realize it was $60 for all six gears. If you just buy the idlers and de-burr your original pinions and outdrives, you'll have just as reliable a gearbox and save $55 at the expense of a little work.
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Re: Help Me Rebuild My Original RC10

Post by GodSpeed »

Bah...I'm probably going to order everything.

This is like a bottomless pit though. I've now read that #6614 idlers are better (updated, Black) than #6613 (and they better be for triple the price!)

And I now don't believe that #6617 comes with the pinion gear but I can find the one I need, #6621, on eBay. Being in Canada sucks for ordering stuff online though. I'm going to get killed with shipping and misc. fees.

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