Interesting observation while racing older RC10's

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Alan_r
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Interesting observation while racing older RC10's

Post by Alan_r »

Hello everyone, I was sitting here today wishing I could be at the track (it's raining) and reflecting on some of the things I've learned over the past few months; with my return to racing after a 20+ year break. I usually discuss within my post's issues or lessons learned and the like. As anyone who has read any of my posts so far, I've had kind of a rocky start regarding issues with products and certain hobby shops. But, like most issues, eventually things work out and the proverbial ducks get in a row leading to many hours at the racetrack.

Now a little history. I originally started racing again with a vintage RC10 Championship Edition car, the very same car I bought in 1990. I did a few minor mods to bring the chassis up to date, updated all the electronics and hit the track. This car has become my test/tune and general practice car. Within a few weeks, I had also picked up a new Re-World's Car and that car has been my primary 2wd buggy that I show up with to actual races. My logic was that I was intimately familiar with the platform, how to tune it ect. and therefore I could focus on blowing the dust off my driving skills. I came into this with the idea in my head that because the car is basically a generation 1 design, there would be no way this car could compete with newer cars, such as the gen 5 B5.

At first, my lap times were well over 10 seconds per lap slower than the current pace at my track. It was expected and I chalked it up to a combination of bad driving and the gen 1 car. I fully expected to run into a brick wall where the car would start to obviously hold me back. But as the weeks progressed, my lap times kept coming down and down. Now keep in mind, I am a club racer racing against other club racers. We do have a few 50% guys running around and they are consistently 4-5 seconds a lap faster than everyone else. I don't count them into this discussion for many reasons, but mainly because I don't consider them club racers and they really don't actually race their cars much in this class. Now, the fast guys who are club racers are not hacks by a long shot. Many of these guys have been racing for 20+ years. On a club level, they are at the top of their game. 95% of the time, from my local experience, these are the guys you will race against when you show up at this track. So I will use them to compare to and as the basis of my discussion.

Now these guys are mostly running new generation cars. I believe the oldest car is a B4.1 FT series car. the rest are B5/RB6 class vehicles. Now to my point; last weekend I was having some issues with my steering. This frustration did distract me and therefore I was not turning the best laps I was capable of. Yet, this old gen 1 car turned a fast lap that was only .853 slower than the fast lap of the A main winner. The average top 5 was 1.67 slower than the A main winner. (Our track is a 30-34 second per lap track) My point is that the new generation car did not beat me. My generation 1 car did not cause me to lose. The other driver beat me and I caused myself to lose. And this my friends, is what's blowing my mind.

I am starting to come to the conclusion that you might not really need the latest and greatest to be competitive. With serious training and practice I'm going to keep getting better. And this old RC10 World's Car seems to be staying right there with me. I sometimes wonder when I read posts written by people who are not in the top 5 at their track yet feel that by buying the newest update of a chassis, they suddenly will be.

I don't know if it's because in reality, the chassis designs have not made the car's that much faster or if the RC10 World's is just a particularly good design, but I haven't come anywhere near the limits of this car. The numbers don't lie. My consistency killed my results, the fast lap time shows the car is capable of the same speed around the track. .853 is VERY close. Less than a second.

Now there are a few things that I have definitely noticed when comparing the gen 1 car to some of my newer cars. Maintenance. The older design seems to require more maintenance than the newer cars. I'm not talking about broken parts, I'm talking about wear and tear and keeping the adjustments and tune true. My two RC10's require much more attention than my newer cars; and they do fail if you fail to give them that attention. But other than that, I am blown away here. Now I'm sure on a National stage the old designs might show their shortcoming's. But so far, on a club level, I have not found them yet. Am I crazy here or are others experiencing this as well?

Anyway, just thought this was interesting and wanted to reinforce some of what others have said in other post's with my own experience. What are your thought's?

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Re: Interesting observation while racing older RC10's

Post by ptlcb1 »

Nope. You are not crazy. Just my opinion, but the Original RC-10, was waaaaaaay ahead of its time! Its design is timeless. No matter how good something is, whether is a new car, a sewing machine, a smart phone, it will be improved from year to year, just to keep up with the ever changing technology. Maybe in the case of the RC-10, improved isnt the correct word. Updated may be a better word. Updated it with new technology because, thats the norm nowadays. I believe, again, just my opinion, that if you put well set-up RC-10s in the factory guys hands, they will still be competitive! Factory guys are paid to showcase a companies latest and greatest new products though. I would love to see a factory guy compete with an Original RC-10 at National and World races. I think he would get the last laugh!

Incase you can not tell, I love the old school RC-10!
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yellowdatsun
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Re: Interesting observation while racing older RC10's

Post by yellowdatsun »

There was something not long ago where Kinwald ran his (or a) 1990-ish RC10 against the newer cars, and the old one was extremely close around the track. The discrepancy in lap times was minimal.

My thoughts on the old VS. new: I run a 1992 RC10, and a B4.2. The old car is so much more forgiving, and easier to drive, small mistakes can be easily corrected. With the B4.2 it is, umm, how shall I say this, very finicky on how you drive it. Slight miscalculations can lead to a very bad off track excursion, as it's not nearly as easy to drive, and not nearly as forgiving. BUT, when you drive the B4.2 in "it's happy place" it will reward you with fast lap times. You can be an average driver to run an RC10 well, but need to be a much better driver to keep the B4.2 in check.

I have found that by driving my B4.2 it has forced me to become a better driver, because mistakes end up worse off, so you MUST keep focus and drive it well.

So I think this is why the RC10 can still keep up with the modern cars. For reference, I've been setting up my B4.2 from the setup sheets that pros like Maifield used, so it's not like my car setup is off, it's just a touchier car to drive.


Now, with my 6 pound Traxxas Slash 4x4, and 2400kv motor, I just push everyone else around! Ha! "Lookout, coming through!" With the right tires it will drift around the entire track. Having that truck setup "loose", makes it easier to drive.

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Re: Interesting observation while racing older RC10's

Post by RC10resto »

Alan_r check out this old long thread when you have a minute.

http://www.rc10talk.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15630

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Re: Interesting observation while racing older RC10's

Post by twisted »

i am currently running my old is new rc10 in mod class and my schumacher kf in 17.5. the rc10 is fast and works well. i does need a little tweaking but it wont be much. the kf does jump better then the rc10.

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Re: Interesting observation while racing older RC10's

Post by fredswain »

I've found that the faster the class, the more disadvantaged the RC10 becomes. In 17.5 spec racing, no problems at all. It's not to say it's a bad car at higher speeds. It's just far less forgiving than my modern cars. I even find my JRX-Pro to be far more forgiving than the RC10. Landing well off of a jump is less of an issue. Setup and driver skill definitely play a big role. On these modern blue groove tracks, I've had more reliability problems with the RC10 than modern cars. Again, this also goes back to overall speed.
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Re: Interesting observation while racing older RC10's

Post by RC10th »

The only issue I have with racing an RC10 in a modified class against modern buggies is being limited by a lack of set up options. This makes you have to push the car harder which in turn makes it less forgiving.
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Re: Interesting observation while racing older RC10's

Post by Alan_r »

ptlcb1 wrote:Maybe in the case of the RC-10, improved isnt the correct word. Updated may be a better word. Updated it with new technology because, thats the norm nowadays. I believe, again, just my opinion, that if you put well set-up RC-10s in the factory guys hands, they will still be competitive! Factory guys are paid to showcase a companies latest and greatest new products though.

Incase you can not tell, I love the old school RC-10!

That makes perfect sense man. Without updates and innovation, companies don't last.
yellowdatsun wrote:There was something not long ago where Kinwald ran his (or a) 1990-ish RC10 against the newer cars, and the old one was extremely close around the track. The discrepancy in lap times was minimal.

My thoughts on the old VS. new: I run a 1992 RC10, and a B4.2. The old car is so much more forgiving, and easier to drive, small mistakes can be easily corrected. With the B4.2 it is, umm, how shall I say this, very finicky on how you drive it. Slight miscalculations can lead to a very bad off track excursion, as it's not nearly as easy to drive, and not nearly as forgiving. BUT, when you drive the B4.2 in "it's happy place" it will reward you with fast lap times. You can be an average driver to run an RC10 well, but need to be a much better driver to keep the B4.2 in check.

I have found that by driving my B4.2 it has forced me to become a better driver, because mistakes end up worse off, so you MUST keep focus and drive it well.

So I think this is why the RC10 can still keep up with the modern cars. For reference, I've been setting up my B4.2 from the setup sheets that pros like Maifield used, so it's not like my car setup is off, it's just a touchier car to drive.


Now, with my 6 pound Traxxas Slash 4x4, and 2400kv motor, I just push everyone else around! Ha! "Lookout, coming through!" With the right tires it will drift around the entire track. Having that truck setup "loose", makes it easier to drive.
I remember hearing about that. I haven't had the chance to campaign a new 2wd platform yet, the World's Car ended up so surprisingly good that I was able to focus on updating my 4wd buggy and 4wd SCT first. I can't compare those platforms other than the maintenance part.
RC10resto wrote:Alan_r check out this old long thread when you have a minute.

http://www.rc10talk.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15630
Thanks for the link to that awesome thread man! That thread must have passed me by at some point. EXACTLY what I was talking about.

Twist: I have noticed that the pan chassis cars seem to jump nose high and land rough out of the box. I originally started tuning with smaller hole pistons, heavier shock oil and then stiffer springs. Eventually however, I just modified the way I handle jumps and added ballast to the nose. These cars seem to be much more sensitive to the timing of your throttle control at the peak of the jump, right before the tires leave the ground. I'm sure this is true to modern 2wd buggies as well, but so far I'm learning that the older pan cars are very rewarding to smooth driving. I changed my train of thought into trying to make the car drive "realistically" (lack of better term) and while training I thought I had slowed down; but in reality I dropped almost three seconds off my lap times.....crazy
fredswain wrote:I've found that the faster the class, the more disadvantaged the RC10 becomes. In 17.5 spec racing, no problems at all. It's not to say it's a bad car at higher speeds. It's just far less forgiving than my modern cars. I even find my JRX-Pro to be far more forgiving than the RC10. Landing well off of a jump is less of an issue. Setup and driver skill definitely play a big role. On these modern blue groove tracks, I've had more reliability problems with the RC10 than modern cars. Again, this also goes back to overall speed.


Fred: I've heard a lot of people say that about the Losi cars. I've always been an Associated fan since the late 80's so I never really got to experience what you're saying (you were the enemy lol :) ) but I've heard it enough to believe it. I am curious about the notion of the modern cars being faster on open tracks. My track is a fairly large 30-40 second per lap outdoor track that has a huge 1/8 class running on it. It is smooth and fast- with some small tech area's thrown in. But 1/8 small. Some of the jumps are much larger than anything I remember from way back but I found my old cars handle them; once I started to finesse the jumps instead of hitting them hard. I test drove an RB6 (father I have sinned) and found that it was more comfortable in hail mary moments whereas my RC10 didn't respond well to hail Marys; usually ending up with broken rear wings and scratches.... But nonetheless, you're not the first to tell me that. I wonder why the new gen cars have more potential on those tracks? Wheelbase and width perhaps?

Either way, I really like the Re World's, and my 90' car of course too. I am really impressed with just how good this car is. Other racers have come up to me after the races exclaiming just how good it looked while navigating the track. They were impressed with how well the suspension was working and with it's turning ability. I guess Associated took everything awesome that they learned over the last 20+ years and built the ultimate Gen 1 car.

Anyway, good stuff. I'm in no hurry to get my modern 2wd going as I'm having way to much fun with this chassis. Obviously I had to update my gold pan CE car quite a bit to achieve this but my World's is not to far from out of the box. I installed modern running gear, better quality ceramic bearings and a battery hold down thumb screws. That's about it. To be honest, I'm really surprised I don't see more older RC10's running around. Parts are plentiful and they sure are capable of bringing out smiles all around. People LOVE watching them run. My guess is it's a combination of nostalgia for the older guys, and disbelief from the younger one's. Either way it's a good thing! :)

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Re: Interesting observation while racing older RC10's

Post by Alan_r »

RC10th wrote:The only issue I have with racing an RC10 in a modified class against modern buggies is being limited by a lack of set up options. This makes you have to push the car harder which in turn makes it less forgiving.
That's definitely something I've considered. Though at this point in my driving/experience, I can feel changes in shock position, upper and lower, changes of springs and oils, ride height ect. but I don't know about minor changes in ball stud height and such. What advanced tuning is available on the newer cars that can not be done on the gen 1, in your experience?

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Re: Interesting observation while racing older RC10's

Post by JK Racing »

I race my gen 1 & gen 3 cars regularly (re-re classic updated to worlds suspension and big bore shocks & b3 bone stock). My b3 is faster on the track, hands down, and more forgiving. But I am more consistent with my gold pan. I think it is concentration level honestly. I get more lax and lazy driving the newer cars and make more mistakes. I do find myself attempting the "hail mary" moves more often with my newer chassis. I dont attempt them that often in the goldie, just because I know how 'upset' the chassis becomes. I feel racing the gold pan has made me a better buggy driver. I have noticed when I drive short course or stadium truck, that I am much more precise and a lot faster that I used to be. Back when these cars were the new cars, I hated buggy, hardly ever drove one and was a stadium truck only guy (offroad, for dirt oval, sprint car :) ). Now, I dont enjoy stadium truck as much (less entries and not as much competition) and they are too forgiving.

Anyways, here are my favorite pictures of my car at the track (before big bore shocks).

Image

Image
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Re: Interesting observation while racing older RC10's

Post by yellowdatsun »

JK Racing wrote:My b3 is faster on the track, hands down, and more forgiving.

Really?? My 1st gen RC10's are easily more forgiving than my B4. One mistake with the B4 and it's not easily corrected. But, the B4 is indeed faster. Then again, I've heard the B3 is the best one to drive. I've was in the market for one, when I found this B4 I couldn't pass up.

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Re: Interesting observation while racing older RC10's

Post by mk-Zero »

I've found every modern car I've driven to be more forgiving than an RC10. in my experience, you have to be super smooth with an RC10, it takes a lot more finesse to get it around the track. Maybe your b4 is set up poorly, it should be really easy to drive?

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Re: Interesting observation while racing older RC10's

Post by JK Racing »

I havent driven my B2 yet, my B4 is super solid and easy to drive fast and consistent (still faster with my b3). I find I MUST use the 'hail mary' driving technique with my B5. My Losi JRX is easy to drive as well, I just dont have a large selection of tires for it, so it doesnt get the track time my RC10s get.

At a local track (that is now closed :o ) we had a vintage class, anything '99 or older. As luck would have it (not my luck), the first gen Losi XXX was released in December of 99. There was a 'shop' driver with one that was glued to the track. He regularly just played with us on the track and dominated in the main. That is when I bought the B3. I decided I'm going to keep up with him with the latest AE car that was legal. Well...lets just say there were very few times I didnt beat him. Indoor high bite clay. The B3 just flat out rocked it. Kit/Box set up too. I currently have a broken front tower on it, dropped a mod motor in and was having some fun doing stupid stuff on the track that snapped it. I'll get it fixed up for a 2 day post Thanksgiving race series, one day outdoor, next day indoor.

Properly driven (and set up), the RC10 is still competitive. My limitations are eyes and reflexes now, not car.
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Re: Interesting observation while racing older RC10's

Post by yellowdatsun »

mk-Zero wrote:I've found every modern car I've driven to be more forgiving than an RC10. in my experience, you have to be super smooth with an RC10, it takes a lot more finesse to get it around the track. Maybe your b4 is set up poorly, it should be really easy to drive?
Or maybe the RC10 is just set uop REALLY well, haha. Yeh, totally possible the B4 isn't set up perfect, but it is set to the speck sheets the pro's had when they raced the B4.2. So it should at least be *close*. It's not that the B4 is bad by any means, I can drive it just fine, and get great lap times, it just seems to be a bit more "twitchy" than the RC10. Maybe because it tracks better, I dunno. Or maybe it's because I grew up with RC10's, and when I got back into the hobby it was just like meeting an old friend, and starting right where you left off. The B4 on the other hand, is the first reasonably current car I've had, since the RC10's were new. So there's a big gap between the RC10 and B4.2. I missed the B2, b3, and B4.1 eras altogether. Pffft, man, I'm just happy I don't have to discharge my batteries with lightbulbs anymore, haha!

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Re: Interesting observation while racing older RC10's

Post by Alan_r »

The subject of are certain cars faster in the hands of certain people has come up in my mind quite a bit lately. Some people just seem to have a certain "preference" for the way a certain car "feels". I really can't seem to lock it down. I've watched people. especially on forums, take an award winning, National and World Championship winning chassis and call it junk, twitchy, pushy or just plain bad; then pick up a competing brand and absolutely love it. I sometimes wonder if a lot of this is due to the modern phenomenon of copying the set up sheet of some pro and using that as a starting point before trying the box settings.

From what I understand, the box settings are what the manufacturer determines are the most universal and neutral settings that will comfortably get the car around most tracks. It's from there that minor tweaks are made to get the car dialed in to the track and more importantly the driver. The years I've been competitively racing over my lifetime can be counted on one hand, however, I've been active in the hobby since the Frog was introduced. In those years, I don't think I have ever seen someone win a large race while using someone else's tune. Set ups are as personal as your underwear....in my opinion of course. So I wonder how many people would have been happy with a particular car if they had started with box stock settings and then learned to drive that particular car. I'm not talking to anyone in particular here, just in general. Having said that, most of my current cars are very close to box setting's. For the most part, my set up trend seems to favor lower ride heights and thicker shock oils; looking across the board at the 4 cars I actively race.

Something else I've noticed, and I'll bring this back around to the World's Car in a moment, is that it seems a lot of people don't spend enough time just driving the car. When I first bought my World's, I did what I always do and searched for threads discussing the car. I look for trends (B44.3 front arms) and try to use that to pre stock my spares box to get me by for the first few weeks. But in these same threads, I noticed all kinds of people wanting to change out the front arms for RC10T arms, Kyosho springs, sometimes shocks ect...before even trying the car the way it comes. They wanted to know what blue bling parts they "needed" before they could drive the car. Then they come back in a few weeks complaining how the car is twitchy or pushes badly....Not saying my method is perfect, but I build the car to box settings, then I drive it for a few days, taking notes as to anything that keeps standing out lap after lap. After 10-20 laps it really becomes clear what is being caused by a mistake I'm making or if there's something wrong with the setup. An example of this, and one that tripped me up for a little while, was the WC flying nose high off certain jumps. At first I started playing with the rear shocks, the slipper, ride height.....turns out, if I just time my jump and let off the throttle for a split second at the peak of the jump, the car flew perfectly level. So I returned to the stock settings, did that and it's been fine ever since. But each car is different, and has to be driven differently. I am not sure if I articulated this properly so I hope what I'm trying to say is coming across. My point is that some cars might not suit a certain driving style out of the box; and if that driver is either unwilling or unable to modify their driving style to suit the car, it may result in the opinion that the car doesn't handle right or has bad traits.

The World's Car grew on me so quickly because it is familiar. It "feels" like the cars I used to race (and still do) so I was able to pick it up very quickly. However, my B44.3 drives differently than anything I've ever driven, 4x4 SCT was like that too. So to drive those cars I had to modify my style of driving before I could start to effectively tune the car. The only way I was able to do this was to put down 7-10 batteries a day for 2-3 weeks while running those cars at box or very close to box settings. Like I said, not directed at anybody but just something I've picked up along the way and hopefully it will help someone. Concise version: These cars are designed by the best minds in the business. Learn to drive to car before changing/modifying it.

Oh and YellowD, you're not lying man. God I hated the NiCad process. Hours spent sitting there checking individual cells to put together that "perfectly matched" pack for each race. To be honest, I can't remember if I was having fun or not back then......:)

But as far as this "newer is better" phenomenon, I just don't understand it. Maybe if you drive a perfect race, every single race, it might matter. But if a marshal touches your car once during that race, it doesn't matter what you're driving. When I noticed the new B5M CE had been released, I got excited and started reading about the car. And that's when I noticed all the negative threads about it with people complaining how "my OLD B5M just can't handle the new Yokomo's and Xray's anymore"....yeah, someone actually wrote that. Take driver 1: World's Car, clean laps with no marshal vs Driver 2: latest and greatest but requires a marshal every other lap. I'd be willing to bet a couple cases on the outcome of that race. I sometimes wonder if people spent as much time practicing with what they have as opposed to constantly modifying and upgrading if they would get better results..?..? Anyway, loving the classics, I think I will continue to campaign them as much as I can along side my newer cars. It's fun being different than everyone else. :)

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