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tools fer cheatin!

esc's, charger's, batteries....

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tamiyadan
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Re: tools fer cheatin!

Post by tamiyadan » Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:31 pm

keeping going on this.

i wrote about one guy that used fake magnetic weights so that on the tech table the car was the correct weight and on the track he ran a couple of grams lighter then everyone else.

it has been forever but i had a handbook on cutting brushes for applications.
there was higher speed brushes, cut brushes that maintained torque for off road, timed, serated designs. angle cuts, cuts that made the comm surface last longer(great for when you got a single handout motor at an event and the rules locked down what you could play with.

it would tell you the best type of brush needed for application as 1/12 onroad pan was going to be different then 1/10 scale off road.

there is a lot you can do with a new motor even before you resort to cheating, bending brush hoods getting that perfect 180 alignment all gave a motor more power.
-----

there was a time when MOSFET driven servos was considered cheating as the reaction time on those were way faster then a human could even react to.

-----

Making your own tires was kind of a grey area sometimes. many good fabriactors in the pits would split tires into 2 or 3 pieces and glue in different centers because they could mess with traction,,, a bunch of times this got published in RCCA sometimes it actaully lead to a new tire being manufactured.
---

The biggest cheating was done at high levels though.... think about the company swinging a 100,000$ budget at one of those events verse you driving in from California to an even in your station wagon.

you show up with some tires and motors and some batteries they show up with an entire 18 wheeler loaded with parts to try out. the chances they find the combination of parts that worked best at a race is much higher then you would every have a chance of figuring out in a million years.

not only did they show up with a catalog of stuff but prototypes you didn't have access to. they would also have top tier Motors and batteries you could not buy at the hobby shops or from a catalog... remember they would buy like 50,000 units of Sub C batteries to match, the top 1% of the tested batteries stayed in house to go to these events, you got the bottom 50% of the batteries that made it to the hobby shops.

Same with motors.....

remember they had the guys that made the motors you all wanted, there was a science to it they would get the track layout in advance figure out the best motors to make sit there and hand build a bunch of motors prepped just for that single event. that was all they did night and day and got paid for it well.

this is why things change after 2002.... with lipo and brushless there is no real top tier anymore the stuff you get at the hobby shops now is REALLY good stuff.
now the fight has switched to software,,, with manufacturers holding back special Firmware upgrades that you do not have access to to give factory guys an advantage.... that is the newest kind of cheating.
(batteries have this software war going on also, with special firmware for cross over voltage and amperage rates for S1,S2,S3 lipos.)
this is why people are constantly chasing chargers and Brushless ESCS now.... and some stacking statuators.

----

hands down the most fair is at the local level,, guys will cheat but they usually loose interest over time...
the worst is at an international event because you have a field of alphas all wanting to be alpha.

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Re: tools fer cheatin!

Post by Stumpy » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:08 pm

tamiyadan wrote:keeping going on this.

-----

there was a time when MOSFET driven servos was considered cheating as the reaction time on those were way faster then a human could even react to.

-----

Making your own tires was kind of a grey area sometimes. many good fabriactors in the pits would split tires into 2 or 3 pieces and glue in different centers because they could mess with traction,,, a bunch of times this got published in RCCA sometimes it actaully lead to a new tire being manufactured.
---

The biggest cheating was done at high levels though.... think about the company swinging a 100,000$ budget at one of those events verse you driving in from California to an even in your station wagon.

you show up with some tires and motors and some batteries they show up with an entire 18 wheeler loaded with parts to try out. the chances they find the combination of parts that worked best at a race is much higher then you would every have a chance of figuring out in a million years.

not only did they show up with a catalog of stuff but prototypes you didn't have access to. they would also have top tier Motors and batteries you could not buy at the hobby shops or from a catalog... remember they would buy like 50,000 units of Sub C batteries to match, the top 1% of the tested batteries stayed in house to go to these events, you got the bottom 50% of the batteries that made it to the hobby shops.

Same with motors.....

remember they had the guys that made the motors you all wanted, there was a science to it they would get the track layout in advance figure out the best motors to make sit there and hand build a bunch of motors prepped just for that single event. that was all they did night and day and got paid for it well.

this is why things change after 2002.... with lipo and brushless there is no real top tier anymore the stuff you get at the hobby shops now is REALLY good stuff.
now the fight has switched to software,,, with manufacturers holding back special Firmware upgrades that you do not have access to to give factory guys an advantage.... that is the newest kind of cheating.
(batteries have this software war going on also, with special firmware for cross over voltage and amperage rates for S1,S2,S3 lipos.)
this is why people are constantly chasing chargers and Brushless ESCS now.... and some stacking statuators.

----

hands down the most fair is at the local level,, guys will cheat but they usually loose interest over time...
the worst is at an international event because you have a field of alphas all wanting to be alpha.
Why would you consider it cheating, just because your competition has more "tools" or "resources" available to them than you do..??

Was there some form of homologation requirement for brushed modified motors back then..?

I mean, there has always been "deep pocket" racers in RC competition for as long as I can remember, but you also must remember that the big manufacturers in this hobby are trying to gain any and every advantage possible, so they can get the win.. Wins on Sunday, sells on Monday...

If you take this from a position of perspective, couldn't most self funded racers say the same about all sponsored drivers at a regular club meet..?

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Re: tools fer cheatin!

Post by tamiyadan » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:48 pm

"Why would you consider it cheating, just because your competition has more "tools" or "resources" available to them than you do..??"

depended on the rules at the given event.


"Was there some form of homologation requirement for brushed modified motors back then..?"

yes , and it also depended on the rules at the given event.
Stock was highly controlled, modified was more open.


"I mean, there has always been "deep pocket" racers in RC competition for as long as I can remember, but you also must remember that the big manufacturers in this hobby are trying to gain any and every advantage possible, so they can get the win.. Wins on Sunday, sells on Monday..."

Grey area that leaned REALLY towards cheating if you raced at high levels.

example...

You race F1,, there are rules,, manufacturer comes out with a new engine they want to test at an event. there is no ruling on this engine yet as it is a prototype. they pay the fine and race the motor come in first, everyone scrabbles to mimic this prototype at the next event.
next event this engine is banned everyone that scrambled is SOL. at this next event manufacturer has another prototype to test, repeat at nauseum.
in the mean time you got robbed of points needed to hold a sponsor. repeat that type of situation for years.

"If you take this from a position of perspective, couldn't most self funded racers say the same about all sponsored drivers at a regular club meet..?"

no actually that didn't happen because most of the sponsored drivers just had some costs covered they had the same equipment access as you would get in the stores, the top guys oh the name calling would fly in the pits. there were like 500 people at some races and 15 guys got photos in the mags.

when a manufacturer was the supplier of the motor for the race and had their own team there and sponsored the event you knew it was going to be a fun time.

this was why there was exodus to local events as time went on and you switched from the most popular format at the time to something else. lots of shake up in the mid to late 1990s as the hobby died.


------

also note: the top guys, they lived this hobby they practiced until their hands couldn't move on the controls anymore there is no faulting that at all.
they had skills, they have/had the hand eye control. there was no cheating that.

at the same time a lot of stuff that happened they didn't know about or found out years later, we were all kids then.

it is also like the other end of the spectrum with lance armstrong... i could take all the roids known to man i'm still not getting on a bike and peddling up a mountain.

----

for fun i googled R/C car cheating... ooo pages and pages of threads and forums.

good threads on Rctech forums

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Re: tools fer cheatin!

Post by makoman1860 » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:02 pm

Oh yes I remember the speed control tweaking! Thats going back to the early 90's, which is when most of the motor tweaking came in too. I remember building a jig to sort armatures on by resistance and timing. Brushes were an art form as well, especially in the 4 cell on road classes. I remember that you basicly had two choices, buy a ton of parts and sort them to build up the best motor, or just blueprint yours to roar specs. Yeah the top national guys ran anything but what the rest of us could buy. I was so glad when the rebuildable stock motors finally came out.

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Re: tools fer cheatin!

Post by tamiyadan » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:06 pm

i just remembered a good one that wasn't really cheating.

For onroad most of the time there was no Tire Diameter rule. so some smarter people would use radials and put a TON of foam inside the tire to make it balloon out. everyone would have the same motor and batteries but one guy would have larger tires, they screamed fowl and cheater big time when that happened but there was no rule against it.

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Re: tools fer cheatin!

Post by RC10th » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:44 am

The Tamiya TCS series was the biggest feild of cheating that I've ever seen. It really came down to who could cheat the best and get away with it.
I was old school - when old school wasn't cool !

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Re: tools fer cheatin!

Post by tamiyadan » Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:07 pm

@RC10th as a guy that ran a bunch of TCS racing i 100% agree....also loved how tamiya changed rules to favor people and screw everyone.

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Re: tools fer cheatin!

Post by RCveteran » Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:31 pm

Life and moral judgement at rc10talk, who'd a thunk :lol: Show me a competition and somewhere cheating is going on. I did not have enough knowledge as a kid to do any of this but sure do find it interesting to read about today. Tell us more juicy and sordid details please.

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Re: tools fer cheatin!

Post by makoman1860 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:58 am

Ha good at least some people caught the spirit of the topic. Just imagine if someone from the outside world overheard a conversation about adults being worked up with cheating and racing toys. They would think the cheaters were crazy for being so involved in toys, and the worked up people were crazy for letting it get to them. Maybe we are all just crazy? Hmmm I do have a dyno in my bedroom........

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Re: tools fer cheatin!

Post by tamiyadan » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:37 am

when you had a good tech check they would catch everything.
the ways you had to cheat easy were:
illegally reducing weight.
motor cheating.

a battery cheat was pretty much impossible unless the rules locked MAH that never happened. Pushing and Zapping cells was pretty much it getting the voltage higher or the IR lower. people ran whatever they felt they liked in that area. there was never a hand out battery that i can ever remember. cheating here was again grey,, as the manufacturer had an amazing collection of cells that outputted in impossible ways if you grabbed it after an event and tested it. but no real rules on it. this cannot happen any more with LIPOS Lipos took this one grey cheating area away.

Motors were hand outs for stock,, stock was where you needed the rules enforced and where the most cheating occurred.

the lure of modified was pretty much everything was open, you could cut or rewind the motor as you wanted.

Modified was impossible to compete in due to the money and special equipment thrown at that class, the wear and tear on all your equipment would bankrupt you fast.

in mod the only real issue was weight or having access to something wacky nobody else could that would be legal the first time it was tried then illegal the next time.
but again modified was modified so there wasn't any real argument there some Grey area maybe.

with Stock having the most rules in an effort to make the cars as even as possible to prove whom was a better driver that was where the most cheating happened.

Just like with TCS the most cheating occurred in the most locked down racing.

stock was cheaper and easier then modified at least at first and that was the point.

but tech would catch people, plus you couldn't sit there in the pits and run a lathe as 500 people watched you cut a new handout stock ROAR motor.

one cheating was they would bring in a ringer motor. they would get the hand out and have similar spare at home, that would be worked on. then they would swap that worked motor for the handout a the track.
but that was stopped fast with techs signing motors at the event and numbering them, in some random colored marker. i know they tried custom labels and people cheated heating up the motors until the glue got hot and they peeled the labels off. but part of the verification for tech was they pulled the motor apart and ran a couple of fast tests on the armature. anything questionable went to a more involved inspection. the only time people get by was either "a bribe" which i never saw or heard about or more often was a lazy tech forgetting to inspect something or letting something slide after looking at 20 motors.

there was an early cheat in stock where somebody modified a motor lathe so you could pull off one side of the brush hood from the motor,, if you yanked the spring post off you could take one side of the brush hood off allowing access to the comm surface. the whole point was you wanted to shave the comm surface, not because you wanted to smooth out out it was because each cut added 1-2 degrees of timing. so if you had a 34 degree motor, you shaved it 3 or more times and you had an illegal 40 degree stock motor. more timing more power, more rpms, all to a limit. but a smaller diameter comm stuck out like a sore thumb when you looked at 20 different motors next to each other.

and yup some people tried to use a piece of cut sand paper and run the motor with a drill to try and sand down the comm surface and increase timing but it was impossible to keep the comm flat and smooth thus all you did was Ruin the motor.

same with rules on brushes if you dropped in a timed brush(same effect as motor comm shaving) and using a modified brush was against the rules you would get caught instantly.


some other cheats were REALLY old school from slot car days,,, Mercury comm drops. some people had that toxic crap saved over from the 1950s-60s
there was secret formula and you dropped that on the comm and you got a more powerful Comm juice mix, it was suppose to be more potent then the non-toxic comm juice that everyone would sneak in if it was illegal, comm drops were like a grey area manufacturers sold it as a product and wanted to you win with their special sauce so they could sell it to the public, when a mag would say a blurb about it winning a race.

there was softening tires soaking it in various chemicals. but there was never a Hand out tire situation. the track dictated what tires you had to use anyway. the closest to a cheat here was like a top driver giving a suggestion to his sponsor about a specific tire needed and Magically this new tire would show up the next day at the track complete with a FAKED catalog showing the part number existed before the event and Oh look we have 5 pairs of these NeW i mean old tires with official printed labels.

oh i remember one track fight revolved around a track official spraying water on the track between a heat,, because that changed the traction of the track and was against the rules and it was like somebody might of paid off a track official to quickly go spray the track as they changed tires for lower traction, because by the time the official was stopped it would be too late and there was a time limit to get your car on the track. of course you can't prove anything, you have to run the race and oh look at the one guy that is TQing far ahead of everyone else, how smart he was to change tires at the last minute. the official apologized for his mistake and promised it wouldn't happen again.

it is like in your favorite video game when you play long enough to know somebody is cheating but the admin won't ban without some magical video proof, like the Score of the person isn't some obvious indication,,, oh look the entire server of players has between 20-30 kills and the one guy has 200 kills.

you throw your hands up and just set a filter to make sure you play when that guy isn't on the server.

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Re: tools fer cheatin!

Post by RC10th » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:45 am

Odorless or undetectable traction compounds at traction free events was another one that popped up frequently.

This is one I heard about but haven't witnessed first hand, a manufacturer wrapping or labeling incorrect cells with the "correct" labels to make them appear legal.
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Re: tools fer cheatin!

Post by tamiyadan » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:14 am

"Odorless or undetectable traction compounds at traction free events was another one that popped up frequently."

Honestly that one is a myth, all the traction compounds that softened rubber or foam reaked heavy from solvents.
most events let you use traction compound as well, they gave up on enforcing that stuff unless it was a TECH race and they gave you the foam tires,,, there was some of that in 1/12 scale.

you could easy tell a cheat with a durometer. I still have my durometer i still use it when i race slot cars.


"This is one I heard about but haven't witnessed first hand, a manufacturer wrapping or labeling incorrect cells with the "correct" labels to make them appear legal."

This actually happened. at first there was some rules with the types of batteries and capacity some people got thrown out of race tracks for it.
sometimes a battery would explode because they didn't use cells rated for high charge and discharge as they messed around.

later they dropped all those rule really.

there was a big blow up at queens off roaders track in 1991 at the nationals. a bunch of people were ragging on some battery makers possibly cheating and one of the guys started to drop F bombs and rag on the Queens off roaders Facility, one of brothers owners i think it was Jung brothers over heard this and then the fireworks went off there was a big fight people got thrown out other people left, Queens off roaders got blacklisted by ROAR cause of it, they never held another regional or nationals, the track spiraled down after that for a couple of years then closed up. I was a regular there back in 1991 and still have my hand out motor from that nationals stock racing event. :D. now there was more going on at that event that set tensions really high so everything just exploded.

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Re: tools fer cheatin!

Post by RC10th » Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:28 am

I've seen "stuff" used at club races where there was a no traction compound rule (carpet). They didn't go as far as using a durometer but if they suspected compounds bye bye....

On another note most of the local indoor tracks that let you use compounds eventually adopted a "no wintergreen" rule.

Lets not forget marshaling, having raced in california there was a bit of Norcal vs Socal driver thing. A norcal guy may be slow to retrieve a socal drivers car but quick to recover a norcal drivers car... Again, TCS was terrible for this.
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Re: tools fer cheatin!

Post by tamiyadan » Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:12 pm

The joys of simple green :)

When I was 13 I completely lost my sense of smell because of all the chemicals people used in the pits between heats.
Today I can't even go near electrical cleaner without having a massive allergic reaction.

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Re: tools fer cheatin!

Post by RCveteran » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:21 pm

No wonder I rarely won. Had nothing to do with my driving, all the cheaters :lol:

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