lazer zx / zxr differences

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Tamiyaterror
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lazer zx / zxr differences

Post by Tamiyaterror » Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:49 pm

hi all, ive been searching for a mk1 lazer zxr for sometime, but havent found one reasnobly priced as yet. i was thinking about buying a lazer zx and converting to a mk1 zxr, just wondered if anyone could tell me the differences between both cars, from what i understand so far there are the differences
shock towers
wing mount
ball diffs (zxr)
wishbones
top deck
body / wing

anyone know of any other differences? or or anyone selling a stock mk1 zxr?

thanks in advance.

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tamiyadan
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Re: lazer zx / zxr differences

Post by tamiyadan » Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:24 pm

front knuckles are plastic verse alloy on the zx
turnbuckles are adjustable style on the zxr, zx was just straight rods no adjustment nuts.
slipper clutch was slightly different with knubs and needed a special spur gear.
gearbox used 1 less needle roller guide
no belt cover in ZXr
mk1 battery holders were the square snap clamp type, later changed to standard round type with body clips.
tires were the H type mini spike on the zxr.

the mk2 got the rear hub bolt on upper link plastic offset and the 1 piece long front upper turnbuckle.
ZX-rr got the 6 cell updated chassis with the battery position more forward.

the ZX-R is one of the hardest cars to restore the parts are scarce, they are pretty rare i've spent years getting parts to finish mine.

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Re: lazer zx / zxr differences

Post by rccars4sal » Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:00 pm

Most difficult parts to find I think are the proper square post battery holders, and the mk1 front shock tower. Seems like Nobody has them stashed away anywhere.

I cant remember if zxr mk1 used medium or short front shocks,, but good luck finding mediums at a realistic price.

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tamiyadan
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Re: lazer zx / zxr differences

Post by tamiyadan » Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:07 am

Used mediums on the front they are about 100$ if you can find them.
The mk1 front shock tower was extremely easy to snap so many broke and got replaced with the mk2 version as kyosho would replace spare parts with updated versions.
The mk2 was also easy to break and they got replaced with carbon fiber double thick versions and later versions that had a bridge in the middle to try and make it stronger.
You can find the square post versions from the left over sport zx-r chassis parts that pop up on ebay.

Mk2 they changed to round posts.

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Re: lazer zx / zxr differences

Post by Welshy40 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:06 pm

Question is what is it for?

If for racing buy the chassis for the zx as it was better, top deck for mk1, towers, well I prefered the mk1 rear tower but the front mms semi circular tower was and still is the best made, then the mk1 steering brace as its better than the mk2 angled version plus easier to cancel out bumpsteer, mk1 L brace, the servo plate is the same, the zx battery brace and poles are what I still use and better than cf. All flat bits available from fibrelyte in my links below, the bodyshell I use is a tomcat on the Kamtec link also below in my links but youll need ebay to find a ZXR undertray. Shocks standard associated will do but would advise using much longer ball joints on the shafts as there isnt as much droop and is costly if your aiming for an A final using them.

Ujs you can use kyosho LA245 with a different axle 231.02, think its LA as well for the rear (if I recall) and think LA232 for the front axles but with the wider front end with the mk2 castor blocks. Its a start so hope its of use.

Also as per Terry below mentioning I did forget wheels, Ansmann Mad Rat wheels are identical in depth and width to the 2.2 wheels used on the MK1 & 2 ZXR's but are as good quality as well plus yes the zx wing mount tbh was pants so the mk1 version is what I use with two steering poles between them as it gives strength so longer life for the wing.
Last edited by Welshy40 on Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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terry.sc
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Re: lazer zx / zxr differences

Post by terry.sc » Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:05 am

It does depend on how accurate you want to be, and there are a lot of differences that haven't been mentioned.

ZX transmission is front and rear gear diffs with a centre ball diff on the layshaft. The ZX-R has ball diffs front and rear and the centre diff replaced with a slipper clutch. Also the ZX uses a 0.6 module metric spur gear while the ZX-R changed to 48dp.

The chassis plates are the same between the ZX and ZX-R Mk1, but the ZX-R got rid of the belt guard and replaced the two piece top deck with a one piece version.
The ZX-R Mk2 moved the batteries back in the chassis to change the chassis balance, this meant the ZX-R Mk2 also had a new chassis, top deck, rear deck mount, motor mount and gearbox side plate.

The battery holders first used the round posts and body clip fixing from the Optima Mid, but with a fibreglass strap. The ZX-R Mk1 changed to the square posts with the battery strap held on by moulded in clips. For the ZX-R Mk2 they reverted to the original standard posts and body clips. Most racers swapped out the square ones for the original ZX ones anyway.

The suspension is the same, the ZX-R version of the wishbones are just ZX ones without the extra webbing. New shock mounts and medium length shocks on the front while the ZX uses short front shocks. If you are planning on racing your ZX-R then a shock mount which has a bridge joining the tops of the shock mount together will stop the front gearbox getting destroyed in a roll. Fibrelyte make a suitable shock mount. Steering centre link is different, the ZX uses a straight link while the ZX-R uses a link with each end angled forwards, this is to reduce ackermann in the steering for a more aggressive turn in.

Wing mount is different, the ZX mount is the same as the Mid, mounted on the shock mount support. The ZX-R uses the Triumph wing mount bolted onto the shock mount. Finally the ZX uses 2" wheels from the Optima Mid, the ZX-R uses 2.2" wheels.
Image

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tamiyadan
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Re: lazer zx / zxr differences

Post by tamiyadan » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:06 pm

i know the ZX-R and ZX-RR are complex due to the MK1 and MK2 designation in my research i think kyosho actually had 4 revisions to the buggy.

there are variations of the car that fall under MK1 and MK2, for example there are known MK2 buggies that came with and without the hyper slipper.
there is a big debate about that. then there are MK1 cars that have some MK2 parts but did not come with the LA-60 chassis they still had the LA-16 chassis.

the revisions included additional supplements to the manual and not all the supplements are available on-line in the various manual databases. I've seen 2 different supplement manuals in addition to the one version of the ZX-r and ZX-rr supplement posted online.

i know many people use the shock towers to tell Mk1 from MK2 but again i have seen original MK1 cars come with MK2 shock towers that included supplement instructions inside the box that are different early to late mk2 versions. the ZX-RR appears to have come in at the tail end of MK2 production as they received the plastic shocks with the LA-60 chassis and the hyper slipper.

my car appears to be an later MK1 or early mk2 which came with MK2 shock towers, but still retained the original LA-16 chassis and standard slipper.

my feeling is MK1 is the original kit, MK2 included supplemental instructions changes to shock towers and battery posts, updated motor plate, MK3 came small parts revisions with LA-16 standard slipper, MK4 came with the hyper slipper LA-60 chassis. this is still fuzzy as the ZX-RR is confused for the ZX-R many times.

Kyosho always did running changes and spare parts support would be updated as well. you would see the same part numbers but the components were changed and the stock appended as it was depleted in hobby shops. the labels got upgraded from the faded orange to the red/white labels but the parts were all downward compatible. You saw this change much more in the suspension arms, 2 packages with the same LA number but it was obvious the suspension arms were very different old to new. in a way i loved kyosho for this as it was possible to just keep updating a chassis ala cart as it went through the cycle.
thus many ZX cars would continue to be used at the track but they would of been upgraded to Zx-R or RR spec or higher depending on how creative people were. many ZX buggies were still cruising the track all upgraded into the late 1990s and even into the 2000s

another confusing aspect is kyosho never bothered to upgrade the photos on the box art, the box art ZX-R is actually the prototype and a careful eye will see more differences then what actually came in the MK1 box.

me i just call my ZX-R a ZX-R and end it there, since i didn't build it from the box and it is a restoration that was heavily abused i know it had parts replaced so i cannot be 100% accurate in what it was originally, plus i liked some of the original ZX-R parts because they were different from what came later even if they didn't work and needed to be updated when track tested.

:D

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Re: lazer zx / zxr differences

Post by rccars4sal » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:20 pm

The zxr mk1 I built years ago from the box was one of those oddities. I remember distinctly it had the mk2 front tower, but it also had 7 cell chassis, and older style slipper clutch. It did have gold shocks. I thought it also had the round battery posts,, but not sure. it was a long time ago. A guy on fb posted an addendum to zxr manual, that was supposed to be the addition for zxrr, but it seemed incomplete. I thought there were more differences between zxrr and mk1 models.

I think what happened, is that updated parts were put into kit boxes, and only some of them were documented in the instructions and addendum.

I know that my instructions for zx-s is little more than an add in, even though its a totally different car!

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Re: lazer zx / zxr differences

Post by HKS_TRD » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:46 pm

Did any of the Lazers ever use the plastic otw-9 battery straps?

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tamiyadan
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Re: lazer zx / zxr differences

Post by tamiyadan » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:20 am

No the lazers all got frp battery holder sets. There was square hole then round hole frp plates.
The lazer sport got plastic square hole versions with a stick battery double cup holder.

There was also 2 optional frp battery holder sets for 7 cell on the la-16 chassis square original and later round.

Otw-09 style was used on the optima mid and ultima II buggies.

One thing that gets overlooked with people wanting the la-60 chassis for what is felt to be better battery layout since it is moved forward and diagonally for roll center, is the la-60 is just a 6 cell chassis. La-16 was a 7 cell chassis. Running 7 cells had the effect of moving the weight forward on the chassis. In America 4wd was pretty much 7cell modified exclusive. There was no stock class and nobody ran 6 cells in 4wd class. When I raced for kyosho beliefly I was provided a 7 cell conversion kit for my optima mid special as they knew here only 7 cell class would be run. I still have the buggy and paperwork and factory 7 cell box for the conversion. Elsewhere in the world 6 cell was run so the popularity of the la-60 across the pond.

For reference I was given this same kit
Image


The big deal was the standard conversion kit came with a 6 cell frp chassis which could be converted to 7 cell and this kit came with a carbon chassis already cut out for 7 cells and was a slightly different shape.

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Re: lazer zx / zxr differences

Post by rccars4sal » Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:19 pm

I think some of the lazer kits had the plastic battery straps on the parts tree, but those kits likely also had the frp battery straps in a bag. Lots of un used parts on the plastic parts trees.

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Re: lazer zx / zxr differences

Post by HKS_TRD » Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:27 pm

Every set of frp battery straps I see is one short and one long but the la-60 chassis would need two short. Is it possible to get a pair of short straps?

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Re: lazer zx / zxr differences

Post by tamiyadan » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:59 pm

the ones that are left, being sold on ebay, are the hopup 8.4v sets that came with the 3 and 4 cell holder.

The easy way is just buy 2 of the hopup sets (i've seen them go for like 10$ a set) so you get the 2 short ones you need (toss the long ones) or fibrelyte aftermarket you can get them.

the stock holders are not Symmetrical there is a slight cutout that you aim towards the back of the chassis. the aftermarket versions have the same cutout on both sides so it doesn't matter direction. kyosho just did that for some extra clearance under the body shell, honestly you could stick it either way and it wouldn't matter.

if you are in a pinch and want the square versions then you can buy the round post version and using a small file cut out the squares as they were larger then the round post holes. you can also use the square holes on the round posts they will just sit a little loose but you can adjust the height on the posts to tighten the holders against the battery cells.

you also can diagonally file the chassis cell holders to drop the cells lower into the chassis. Kyosho never told people to file the cell holders because the box stock version of the car was suppose to be used with the hard plastic Kyosho Saddle pack battery. this hard case battery fit right into the stock chassis holes for the cells.

"I think some of the lazer kits had the plastic battery straps on the parts tree, but those kits likely also had the frp battery straps in a bag. Lots of un used parts on the plastic parts trees."

the original ZX did come with the plastic battery holders. it was on the same spur as the round battery holders and there was left over parts from the turbo optima mid on that spur
you can see it here
http://www.retromodelisme.com/scan_page ... age-6.html

the ZX also reused the turbo optima mid wing mounts. the ZX-R changed the wing mounts from the rear gearbox deck holder to the rear shock tower and changed to Ultima II wing mounts. the rear shock tower is different from ZX to ZX-R because of the change

the ZX-R then had a reduced battery post Spur that had just the parts needed for the Square holders.
http://www.retromodelisme.com/scan_page ... age-5.html

then later they swapped in the reduced Spur for the MK2 with the round versions.


no body says you cannot use the plastic ones i mean if you want to run the car by all means use them...
another popular upgrade was installing Rubber after market Quick release cell holders. that schumacher used.

oh there is another change between the ZX and ZX-R the front hubs received a second Offset hinge pivot hole about 3-5mm from the original hole.
the manual is really not clear but you were suppose to use the inner hole for the ZX-R version this increased the front track like 6-10MM however it caused numerous problems for people that did because the front universal was right on edge of popping out of the dogbone drive cups.
This was Addressed later with the LA-106 and LA-26 re-visioned arms kyosho made then slightly longer 2-3mm and then required to use the original ZX hole for the front hubs which took you back just enough to keep the front universals from ejecting out.

http://www.retromodelisme.com/scan_page ... age-5.html

look at step 14 you can just figure out what kyosho meant with the 2 holes on the Hubs.
and keep in mind this changed as kyosho length-ed the front arms just slightly,,, so if you use the newer arms with the second hole in the hubs the front track is too wide and the universal will not engage with the dogbone drive cup, you could if wanted install longer universals and take advantage of the width however it will bind the suspension up movement because the angle gets extreme between the cup and dogbone. there were aftermarket universals with a cutout around the dogbone shaft that gave more clearance.


keep in mind this: on the kyosho parts bags and even on some kit boxes it states "contents may change without notice". this was kyosho just inserting upgraded parts listed as downward compatible this caused numerous frustration with some cars as the parts combinations didn't quite work together unless you bought more revised parts that you didn't know you needed.... it was pre internet so who knew exactly what worked back then MANY cars got sidelined because you broke a part got a new one then things did not fit or work like they did before. today people take photos side by side and you can see the changes.

as another example there was another LA-26 version where kyosho moved the shock mount back slightly and it caused the shock to bind on the front shock tower. then they later quietly changed that. that was a good one drove people insane.
Last edited by tamiyadan on Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: lazer zx / zxr differences

Post by Wahrsuul » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:43 pm

I've got a couple original Lazer ZX's if you need pics of anything.

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Re: lazer zx / zxr differences

Post by HKS_TRD » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:00 pm

Thanks for all that info. I didn't realise Kyosho also changed the length of the front la-26 wishbones, I'll have to compare all the arms I have now. I also have two sets of the la-104, one for my zx-s and one for my runner
So many little differences, you always learn something new.
I have many NIP parts here and trying to put aside in three boxes what is required to build a ZX, ZX-R MKI and ZX-R MKII and build a spare car with the leftovers to sell. I think I'm pretty close now.

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