Kyosho Turbo Burns - New Rebuild

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Re: Kyosho Turbo Burns - New Rebuild

Post by sandkil »

That is a really nice find. Love the Burns :)

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Re: Kyosho Turbo Burns - New Rebuild

Post by Lavigna »

USA-1 wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:18 am
Nice looking buggies. That dual engine Burns chassis is insane! I am assuming that is custom?
Yes it came straight off the dual engine ready for powder coating. I manage to fine another Burns/ crusher chassis in my stock pile and made a back up chassis this time I bend the chassis without make the slit cut you see on the gold chassis and was powder coated Blue.

As for that engine I have forgotten about that version. Looks like you might have the case harden steel gears, came stock on the top of the line Inferno and some turbo version, according to the manual if came with BWS 1,2 a better picture of the gears teeth and I can determine if that is indeed the case. Also the giant e-clip retainer to hold the gear on to the housing is good sign, I believe the Aluminum and the cast gears did not used the e-clip retainer.

Some fine examples here...https://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?/topic/68284-kyosho-turbo-burns-is-it-worth-restoring/

Here is a better picture of the teeth. I had assumed they were hardened, as this is a Turbo Burns.

I found and ordered a BSW6 rear wing mount set. This will cover the 6 domed washers and 2 cross tubes I needed.

My list of ordered vintage hop up parts has grown. It now includes:

Option front and rear black towers
Option front brake kit
Option front sway bar
Option turnbuckles throughout
SS hardware
Option rear universals

I am considering making a custom cf or graphite front plate & radio plate. I think it would look nice, but I also want to keep the overall look somewhat factory. I keep going back and forth. Any suggestions are always welcome. I hope to have a bunch of progress pictures soon.
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Re: Kyosho Turbo Burns - New Rebuild

Post by USA-1 »

According to the online manual here http://www.retromodelisme.com/scan_pages/6376/turbo-burns-4wd-kyosho-page-18.html shows it as standard equipment is not under the optional part list.

The picture you provided shows it as cast iron bevel gear middle of the pack, came as either Aluminum, cast iron and finally the case harden steel gears.

The teeth length wise towards the case shows it very long, BSW 2 is shorter.
You can see it in the picture, prehaps Dan thought the cast were the harden steel?
Image
Since it's going to be a shelf model I guess it won't matter much, but would have been nice that it had BSW 1,2.
Plenty of BSW 2 on Ebay only problem is BSW 1 smaller gear are hard to come by.

I did the front plate and custom radio tray out of 2mm CF on the twins came out nice, it's up to you.

Make sure you pack inside of each diff with good thick lube, BITD I was using Ron Paris "Ronnie grease" Thick ass green grease, now I'm using Mobil one full synthetic grease.

Also when re-building the buggy make sure that the whole drive train system remains drag free, all my twins and infernos have zero drag meaning the smallest electric motor can move them with ease. I have seen other cars with wide open throttle and no brakes on and the drive train had a lot of binding will move but takes some effort and they wonder why their buggies was so slow and tend to overheat the engine, just something to beware of if you want to build a fast buggy.

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Re: Kyosho Turbo Burns - New Rebuild

Post by Lavigna »

USA-1 wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:10 pm According to the online manual here http://www.retromodelisme.com/scan_pages/6376/turbo-burns-4wd-kyosho-page-18.html shows it as standard equipment is not under the optional part list.

The picture you provided shows it as cast iron bevel gear middle of the pack, came as either Aluminum, cast iron and finally the case harden steel gears.

The teeth length wise towards the case shows it very long, BSW 2 is shorter.
You can see it in the picture, prehaps Dan thought the cast were the harden steel?
Image
Since it's going to be a shelf model I guess it won't matter much, but would have been nice that it had BSW 1,2.
Plenty of BSW 2 on Ebay only problem is BSW 1 smaller gear are hard to come by.

I did the front plate and custom radio tray out of 2mm CF on the twins came out nice, it's up to you.

Make sure you pack inside of each diff with good thick lube, BITD I was using Ron Paris "Ronnie grease" Thick ass green grease, now I'm using Mobil one full synthetic grease.

Also when re-building the buggy make sure that the whole drive train system remains drag free, all my twins and infernos have zero drag meaning the smallest electric motor can move them with ease. I have seen other cars with wide open throttle and no brakes on and the drive train had a lot of binding will move but takes some effort and they wonder why their buggies was so slow and tend to overheat the engine, just something to beware of if you want to build a fast buggy.
Thanks for all the info. I will keep an eye out for the BSW 1. Since this will be a shelfer, it is not a high priority. However, as this build will likely have all available vintage options, I may as well cover this area as well.
I have a brand new original, uncut Turbo Burns body ordered. I am fortunate to have found it. I also bought a body/decal set from Marwan. I am curious to see how the 2 bodies compare. I still hope to find some original decals.

I also found a new Gold anodized chassis. I am pretty excited to have found one of these BNIB. Some of my ordered parts are coming from Japan, and are not expected until the end of the month. Hurry up and wait...

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Re: Kyosho Turbo Burns - New Rebuild

Post by Lavigna »

USA-1 - I took a closer look at the difference in the gears. The manual shows the smaller and bigger gears listed as #22 and #149 respectively. These are listed in the manual as BSW-01 & BSW-02 respectively. There is no mention of an option gear listed in the Optional Parts section. My manual (pictured) is slightly different, but the listings in regards to the gears is the same. This tells me the gears in my kit are BSW1 and BSW2, and are/were considered an upgrade at some point. However...

When I search online, I see both types of the gear (the style you posted above, and the style in my kit) listed under BSW2.

For simplicity, I will refer to your posted black gear as the BLACK version, and my version the GOLD version.

Some descriptions list the BLACK version as only compatible with the Inferno and up series - https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA22K32K8789

... While others list the BLACK version compatible the Turbo Burns - https://www.ebay.com/p/Vintage-Kyosho-8th-Scale-Burns-Drive-Bevel-RC-BSW2/1701528627

This auction is for the GOLD version, again listed also as BSW2 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/BSW-2-Drive-Bevel-L-Upgrade-Part-Kyosho-Burns-Inferno-Nitro-USA-1-/253144644593?hash=item3af098bbf1:g:N5QAAOSwzgBY1JYy

This leads me to believe there is an early, and then later revised version of the BSW1,2 gears. I would assume the BLACK version came out later, probably around the time the Inferno series was introduced. You can certainly tell the BLACK version has a more machined finish. The GOLD looks more "pressed" to me. Please let me know if you see anything different.
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Re: Kyosho Turbo Burns - New Rebuild

Post by USA-1 »

I've seen the so called gold version listed as BSW2 and I LOL some of these seller are sneaky just because it says BSW2 doesn't mean that what it is, sometimes they would remove the staple carefully and placed a lower grade gear thinking the buyer won't know the difference.

Ordered the lowest price BSW 2 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kyosho-Drive-Bevel-Diff-gear-BSW2-/272419171627?epid=1495608070&hash=item3f6d72ad2b:g:SPgAAOSwxKtYB0NW and when you compare the material been used you will see the difference. There is NO Black and Gold version of the same gear also the BSW2 gear there is a small gap between the gear and the diff housing maybe around 1~2 mm gap. No gap no case harden steel gear.

Also when these so called cast iron gear fail they take out a couple roll of teeth and are brittle. Not really sure of the material being used so I just called them cast iron or cast low grade steel gears, and I don't know why the part list shows only 1 set of gears used there is the front and rear so you will need 2 sets.

Maybe the previous owner swap out the gears and sold them on Ebay for more money after all these gears are hard to come by especially the smaller gear BSW1, when they do show up on Ebay they want an arm and a leg for the gear.

Sometimes it might be easier to buy a complete used Top of the line Inferno or turbo version inferno's and salvage the parts from them If the seller is unaware of the difference.

Not sure if it was also used in lower price Inferno DX, DX11 and the Nitro Crusher USA-1 I don't believe it was, stick to the top of the line Inferno and Turbo Inferno. Also check the online manual I just search the lower price Inferno's, USA-1 Nitro Crusher and the Inferno ST and they are listed as optional upgrade.

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Re: Kyosho Turbo Burns - New Rebuild

Post by Lavigna »

I figured I would quit guessing about the gears differences, and went straight to the source. Mr Marwan Alnusif himself. Here is what he said:

"The turbo burns comes equipped with BS14 drive gears out of the box, BS14 is basically a set of both bevel gears and are very strong.

The Inferno, Turbo Inferno were also equipped with BS14 out of the box. That being said, Kyosho stopped selling BS14 as a spare part like it used to do till the early 90s, instead they offer you BSW1 and BSW2 for a replacement, which is a slightly modified version of BS14. From my experience the BS14 was as strong as BSW1 and BSW2.

For cheaper models like the inferno dx and the landmax I series and to bring the cost down, Kyosho have made a weaker aluminum version of bevel gears (BS121). "


Works for me. Because the differential gears are partially visible through the top lexan cover, I am going to stick with the gold units I have. The gold color will show better, and I think they look nicer.

I am excited for the pictured Gold option chassis I have coming. I couldn't resist. I guess that means I have a new, mint Turbo Burns chassis for sale, if anyone is interested.
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Re: Kyosho Turbo Burns - New Rebuild

Post by USA-1 »

Well he is wrong the Inferno never came with the BS-14 not that I know of and I worked at a hobby store during the peak of the RC era. Read the article on the Inferno 1992 Oct issue no mention of the earlier gears being used. I knew the cheaper gears were sold as a set. Like Dan said they ate bevel gears for lunch and dinner, again I had 1st experience running these cheaper gears and they wouldn't last long especially with the torque of the twin engines will stripped the teeth right off. Sure the gold color might look good but just as strong as the case hardened steel. LOL no comparison, very brittle, shattered very easily.
Like I said, oh well it's going to be a shelf model anyways, and if you do run it just take it easy and try not to hit anything, and I don't think the Turbo Burns came with the BSW 1,2 might have been a typo error on their part list.
BSW 1,2 will make your Burn very reliable and no worries virtually making the drive train bullet proof.. :mrgreen:

Get a good size Ball Peen Hammer give a good smack on both gears, you will see that the hardened steel might sustains some minor damaged while the Gold gear will shattered into pieces, It may come in peace but it's going out in pieces. :lol:

I actually believe that the diff housing bulkhead will distort and crack before the hardened gears will give in, that's how strong they are.

One more thing if you do decide to run Burns don't use no cheap AM or FM radio these buggy causes to much interference and glitches, use the newer higher 2.4 Gigahertz or a good PCM radio with built in Fail safe system, you can program the fail safe so if the buggy is out of range it will slam on the brakes and sit there idling until radio contact is reestablished, without the fail safe if the buggy is running wide open and at full speed, you will have a run away which is very dangerous and may damage the buggy during the crash.

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Re: Kyosho Turbo Burns - New Rebuild

Post by Lavigna »

I got a good sized delivery of parts in today. I am pretty excited about the gold chassis, and the original uncut body. The misspelling of 'glass' and 'plate' on the header cards is pretty hilarious.

I got a second pair or rear shocks. I am thinking of getting the tall option front tower, BSW50, which allows the use of the rear length shocks up front. Still not sure though.

Luckily, the original body has the clear plastic spray film on it, which has protected it from years of shelf/box wear and scratches. I am looking forward to comparing it to the repo body from Marwan. I have the original wing already.

The gold color of the chassis does not show well in photos, but the color in person is perfect. I wanted to emulate the look of the gold chassis shown on the box art photos. Comparison to the original chassis shows the stark difference in shade.

The Turbo Burns came with front cvds, but dog bones in the rear. This set will update the rear to cvd as well.

Waiting on a few more packages to arrive, and then I can start the actual rebuild. Getting excited.
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Re: Kyosho Turbo Burns - New Rebuild

Post by EvolutionRevolution »

USA-1 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:17 pm I've seen the so called gold version listed as BSW2 and I LOL some of these seller are sneaky just because it says BSW2 doesn't mean that what it is, sometimes they would remove the staple carefully and placed a lower grade gear thinking the buyer won't know the difference.
Unfortunately the described scenario is entirely possible with Kyosho. They sometimes upgrade parts without changing the part number, so you can have slightly or more rarely completely different parts that come under the same number.

I've personally seen this with "Optima" parts (OT numbers) that were still used for PureTen kits in the late 1990s (usually slight differences, sometimes newly designed parts), Impress F1 parts (the chassis plate described in this post), Ultima RB Type R parts (very annoying diff part change that also swapped two part numbers), and various iterations of their Ultimate Shock kits.

They also tend to make running changes to their kits, so a later produced kit of a particular model can have different, usually upgraded, parts.

Furthermore, they often sell slightly different kits depending on the market (Japan, Asia, Europe, USA, etc.), leading to sometimes major differences between kits of the same model depending on where it was sold. A good example of this would be the early 1990s cars that were sold with alloy, kelron, or fiberglass chassis plates and shock towers depending on the market.


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Re: Kyosho Turbo Burns - New Rebuild

Post by Lavigna »

Thanks for the heads up. I have been watching that OS EX auction, and speaking with the seller. I would still like to find a new engine, as the rest of the car is new, but that may be awhile. I know they pop up every so often. We'll see...

I hate to bring up the BSW1,2 issue again, because I really don't care much about it. But, when I began assembling the drive boxes the other day, I noticed the small drive gears on my car are BSW1. They are black, machined, and look just like all the images of BSW1 I see elsewhere. They are a completely different material, and machined shape than my large, gold gears. I had not even noticed them before, lol. This means I only need to grab a couple BSW2's to upgrade my drive train. I am still going to keep my gold, large gears, because I like how the look through the plastic covers.

The front and rear ends are nearly complete. I took a long time to polish and refinish many of the pieces. The car in the box art photos has polished pieces, and that is what I am trying to replicate. The front aluminum knuckles took a long time. They still don't look as polished as I would like, but much better then what they were before.

As for installed option parts, I have both carbon towers in place, the rear cvds, front sway bar, and titanium turnbuckles. Chassis build starting now...
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Re: Kyosho Turbo Burns - New Rebuild

Post by USA-1 »

Buggy looking good, nice job as for that engine it looks like very low run time, cylinder head no scratches and if you're swapping body it should look like new again maybe sell the other to recoup the cost. Also I prefer that exhaust manifold to the one in the box art, but that's not the original.

You luck out if that is true about BSW 1. if I were you i'll swap them out for the harden steel just because of the hassle of switching them, messes job. I thought your diff cover came in clear to show off the gold but I see they are tinted, they did come in those 2 choices.

As for servos I would run a Futaba S9302 for steering and S9301 for gas/braking, period correct. Not sure what the box art is using. All my Twins and Infernos are running these servo's.

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Re: Kyosho Turbo Burns - New Rebuild

Post by Lavigna »

USA-1 wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:59 pm Buggy looking good, nice job as for that engine it looks like very low run time, cylinder head no scratches and if you're swapping body it should look like new again maybe sell the other to recoup the cost. Also I prefer that exhaust manifold to the one in the box art, but that's not the original.

You luck out if that is true about BSW 1. if I were you i'll swap them out for the harden steel just because of the hassle of switching them, messes job. I thought your diff cover came in clear to show off the gold but I see they are tinted, they did come in those 2 choices.

As for servos I would run a Futaba S9302 for steering and S9301 for gas/braking, period correct. Not sure what the box art is using. All my Twins and Infernos are running these servo's.
Yes, it looks to be a very nice engine. I already have the box art manifold. I have an offer to the seller, but have been waiting to hear back for awhile now.

Yes, I was shocked when I noticed the BSW1 I already had. I was skeptical at first, but I compared them very closely to all online photos I could find, and there is no question in my mind. The lexan gearbox covers are tinted, but you can still see the gears inside. I am sticking with the gold large gears for now, but may change it up down the line.

Thanks for the electronics input. That will be the next hurdle.

The buggy had gone together pretty well so far. I am really taking my time to make sure each piece is as nice as I can make it. Polishing all the silver aluminum/steel. I bought a SS hardware kit for the buggy, and am using it in most places, except a few sections where black heads look correct. I am very surprised with how smooth the entire driveline is. It feels smoother than my modern 1/8 vehicles. I received the option front disc kit today, and that allowed me to attach the front end. I also have some option aluminum shock bushings. They are a polished silver aluminum. These photos are pretty crappy, and don't show the rears too well (fronts are not on yet), but I am not sure I like the look. I am thinking of swapping back to the stock black plastic bushings. Back and forth, back and forth...

The coating/finish of the shock bodies that came with the car were a little rough. I don't understand why, as they were never used. The coloring is inconsistent, and almost stained looking. I got a BSW28 set of NIB rear shocks, and those are the units I installed. I have not installed the front shocks I have yet, as I am hoping to find a new set of BSW27. There is a nice set on eBay, but the seller is asking too much, and I have had a bad transaction with him before. The other benefit of the shock kits are the additional springs. I may swap out the stock black springs for the silver or gold springs.
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Re: Kyosho Turbo Burns - New Rebuild

Post by Basher67 »

Great build so far. I have similar tower hobbies memories. For me, I was 15 and drooling over the original Burns. It's advertised 50 mph out of the box was unbelievable. In my opinion, the Burns series was one of the most iconic 1/8 nitro buggies. Decades later I did end up with an Inferno during my nitro days but I would still love to get my hands on an original Burns for the shelf. Can't wait to see this one complete. :mrgreen:

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