Team Blue Groove

Show off your paintwork, tips/tricks, decals, etc...

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romulus22
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Re: Team Blue Groove

Post by romulus22 »

Gotcha. Makes perfect sense.

I was wondering why the difference for a long time.

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Bormac
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Re: Team Blue Groove

Post by Bormac »

Charlie don't surf wrote:
gomachv wrote:From what I understand the mold shrinks after it dries.
Not the mold shrinking, its the method his molds are made-
From my understanding the buck doesn't shrink so much but the lexan form does after it's released and allowed to cool.

Jay does have some original factory bucks and you simply can't beat this for an exact form. However Jay does have some bucks made from factroy lexan bodies and the issue here is hi-lited in my post above.

I can confirm that some of Jays reproductions fall short as other reproductions do. Not in quality but in size. I've purchased, trimmed and fitted atleast 3 of the Yokomo 870c shells and they are all smaller than the original factory form. I once had a mint new factory body shell a while back and when comparing measurements between the two the repro was smaller. I don't have issue with this as I know it to be the nature of this stuff.

Still, I am very grateful to Jay for his super high quality forms. From what I have seen they are the best I have come across.
-Jason.

Still known as- bormac

My collection-http://www.tamiyaclub.com/showroom.asp?id=10980

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scr8p
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Re: Team Blue Groove

Post by scr8p »

J.M. wrote:I can confirm that some of Jays reproductions fall short as other reproductions do. Not in quality but in size. I've purchased, trimmed and fitted atleast 3 of the Yokomo 870c shells and they are all smaller than the original factory form.
now think how much smaller tbg's bodies are when they use one of jay's repros to make a mold? that's where the whole 11th scale joke comes from.

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Re: Team Blue Groove

Post by Bormac »

scr8p wrote:
J.M. wrote:I can confirm that some of Jays reproductions fall short as other reproductions do. Not in quality but in size. I've purchased, trimmed and fitted atleast 3 of the Yokomo 870c shells and they are all smaller than the original factory form.
now think how much smaller tbg's bodies are when they use one of jay's repros to make a mold? that's where the whole 11th scale joke comes from.
Without a doubt if you were to sit any of TBG repro's from repro's next to a form repro'd from a factory shell you'll find TBG to be smaller. If this is the case then this really sux. I don't have issue with anyone searching out factory original shells and making repro's but making a repro from a repro is not just morraly wrong in my mind but the end user will end up with a super small form. Personaly I can deal with trimming the chassis plate a little if the form is a little too snug but when the form is too small then what?

I seriosuly can't understand the repro gear cover thing. Every repro gear cover I have come across is actually too small to fit nicely over the motor plate. It just prooves the points I've outlined above.

You simply cannot beat factory original or molds taken from factory bucks. I'd be glad to pay the extra any time.
-Jason.

Still known as- bormac

My collection-http://www.tamiyaclub.com/showroom.asp?id=10980

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jwscab
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Re: Team Blue Groove

Post by jwscab »

yep, if the guy has the right molds isn't offering a product, and someone else is offering a product that is 85% as good, whatcha gonna do?

for sure Jay has the better product. Problem is, up until he started selling on ebay, how many guys knew about them? Joe schmoe with his rc10 who is not a member of rc10talk(weird, but true), goes on ebay and finds TBG pretty easily, and price is OK. He buys the tbg product and provides them with more capital to invest with. unfortunately that's how it goes.

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Re: Team Blue Groove

Post by Bormac »

jwscab wrote:yep, if the guy has the right molds isn't offering a product, and someone else is offering a product that is 85% as good, whatcha gonna do?

for sure Jay has the better product. Problem is, up until he started selling on ebay, how many guys knew about them? Joe schmoe with his rc10 who is not a member of rc10talk(weird, but true), goes on ebay and finds TBG pretty easily, and price is OK. He buys the tbg product and provides them with more capital to invest with. unfortunately that's how it goes.
I see your point.
-Jason.

Still known as- bormac

My collection-http://www.tamiyaclub.com/showroom.asp?id=10980

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romulus22
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Re: Team Blue Groove

Post by romulus22 »

This may sound a little crazy but why not fill the original, to hold its shape well, mold the outside of the shell, Then pull the useable mold from the outer mold.

The body I purchased from TBG that I had an original to compare to, the repro just barely fit inside the original. Not even fully in some places. It was almost like it was just the thickness of the lexan too small.

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Re: Team Blue Groove

Post by ROH73 »

The mold has to be made from a material that can handle the 400 degrees F Lexan pulled tightly over/around it. The original body would distort from the heat and possibly bond with the new layer. Vacuum forming bucks are typically made from aluminum and high temperature resins.

The amount of repro shrinkage is dependent on several factors and can be reduced considerably with good equipment and practices. The shrinkage is also a percentage factor. The whole body is maybe 2% smaller. That is only really noticeable on long dimensions, such as the overall length or front body post to back body post, etc.

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romulus22
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Re: Team Blue Groove

Post by romulus22 »

ROH73 wrote:The mold has to be made from a material that can handle the 400 degrees F Lexan pulled tightly over/around it. The original body would distort from the heat and possibly bond with the new layer. Vacuum forming bucks are typically made from aluminum and high temperature resins.
What I was saying is make a mold of the outside of the body. Then make a mold you would be using for the bodies from the inside of that.

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Re: Team Blue Groove

Post by ROH73 »

Ah, I understand now.

Yes, that would help a lot in the shrinkage department. I think a lot of detail would be lost, however. Things like window and cut lines would end up very faint. They could possibly be added back by scribing new lines.

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ROH73
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Re: Team Blue Groove

Post by ROH73 »

A few years ago, I did a lot of research on vacuum forming, particularly for Lexan. I built my own vacuum former, developed a forming method that works for me, created repro molds from existing gear covers and bodies and created entirely new molds. So, I'm no professional expert, but I have hundreds of hours of "hobby grade" experience. Some things I've learned:

1. Repro molds are usually made from special high temp resins that are poured into an uncut body. The resin, as it cures, has very small shrink rates (typically 0.0005" per inch). For all intents and purposes, the resin doesn't shrink enough to matter and makes a very accurate copy of the inside of a body.

2. Lexan, however, does shrink...as it cools. And it cools fast. As soon as it's away from close proximity to heat, it cools and tightens on the mold like a vice. So most forming machines release the formed Lexan when it is still very warm, to make the separation from the mold easier. This allows the Lexan to continue to cool without support and it makes a body whose inside dimensions are a couple of percent smaller than the mold's outside dimensions.

3. The condition described in #2 is fine when original molds are used...they're sized to be slightly larger than needed. For example, if the inside of a body needs to be 12" long, then mold would be around 12.1" long. Repro molds don't have this advantage and the resulting body is a little smaller. Copies of copies continue the trend.

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Re: Team Blue Groove

Post by terry.sc »

It's a combination of shrinkages due to the materials used. As a professional modelmaker I would regularly have to make patterns scaled up to compensate for resin castings made from them, usually 0.4%-0.8% bigger depending in what resin is being used. TBG will be using the standard way of making vacforming moulds by using metal filled polyurethane resins, so expect 0.5-0.6% shrinkage.

Then there's the lexan. When you vacform lexan it shrinks around 0.7% so you have to compensate for that when making a mould. It shrinks so much that if you let it cool on the mould and you don't have enough draft on the sides of the mould you end up having to cut it off. Making one offs and vacforming them manually, quite often it would grab and you would end up blasting air at 60 psi between the mould and lexan to try and get them to separate.

This shrinkage all adds up so for a buggy body it can easily end up being 1/8" or more shorter.

There are ways around this, using high expansion plasters to copy the body and taking the body off before fully cured will give you the increase in size to compensate for the shrinkage, but the resulting plaster mould will need the surface finishing and polishing before you either use it for a short run of parts or use it to create a resin mould.
J.M. wrote:I seriosuly can't understand the repro gear cover thing. Every repro gear cover I have come across is actually too small to fit nicely over the motor plate. It just prooves the points I've outlined above.
All the repro makers do is fill the original with resin and that's it, it doesn't compensate for any shrinkage. The easiest way to make the mould properly is to use a gear cover for the main shape, but to make an oversize aluminium plate as the base. Take some prototypes then test them on an actual motor plate and adjust until you get the right fit. Unfortunately this means extra work and expense as well as decent fabrication skills so unlikely to anything different from TBG.
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Re: Team Blue Groove

Post by RC10th »

I've just received my first ever lot of TBG bodies and my first impressions are pretty good. They are all the same body and I don't have an original to compare to though so I'll reserve my final decision till then. I am still waiting on my second lot which I do have plenty of originals to compare, they are due any day.

The Associated Protech even feels like a copy as it slips inside the original perfectly, and the window net is different.

I disagree with the undercutting or copying of someone elses work (unless there is demand and is no longer available from the original source) but I don't have a problem with a copy of something that is no longer available.

On a side note regarding posts on the first page I have a NIP Twister Bat Wedge. Not sure what to do with it.
I was old school - when old school wasn't cool !

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Re: Team Blue Groove

Post by hugger19 »

wish he would redo the early orginal rc10 clear gear cover.

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Re: Team Blue Groove

Post by kink »

I bought a body from TBG. The service and product were excellent.



With regard to copies of copies. That is a can of worms I did not know about. However if anyone owns the Intellectual Property rights I suspect it will be Associated, or whoever owns them now (Thunder Tiger?). But as they do not make the old models any more I cannot see them caring at all. I think anyone who makes bodies will have to accept anyone else can easily copy them. Just like I make artwork (illustrations or paintings) and someone else can copy me. That is life!
GARBO 1/8

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