Rc10 BRUSHED motor suggestions

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sbednara
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Re: Rc10 BRUSHED motor suggestions

Post by sbednara » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:58 pm

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Re: Rc10 BRUSHED motor suggestions

Post by RadioFlyer » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:06 pm

XLR8 wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:44 pm
Has anyone here ever tried one of these Reedy Radon motors? I have one from an RTR but I've never ran it. It's 17 turn and pretty cheap.
I have one. I think it came in my son's Associated SC10 RTR. It's actually a pretty solid motor. It will work great in any buggy.

Just an FYI for the old-school guys like me, brushed isn't quite dead. In fact it has had a resurgence in the crawling world. There are several places that sell good motors and not just in 35 turn and up. I usually pick up a couple of these every now and then.

https://www.banggood.com/540-Sensored-B ... rehouse=CN

They are rebuildable and very inexpensive. I can run my old armatures in them too if I really want to. The 21 and 27 turn motors are actually great for making a runner out of a classic car. I don't think a 21 is going to break a six gear transmission unless you really beat on it.

As far as ESCs go, you can't beat $10 for one of these.

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/hobbyking-x ... r-esc.html

I have two of them in my Axial XR10 comp crawler but I also use them in just about any of my old bashers. They are forward/reverse with brake or instant reverse and they have LiPo cut-off. 45A is enough to run 14 turn and up brushed. I prefer these to any of the Tamiya ESCs you get with their kits.
Sean 8)

I'm going to drive it 'til the wheels fall off and burn.

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Re: Rc10 BRUSHED motor suggestions

Post by XLR8 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:22 pm

I think I got my Radon the same way; an SC10 RTR. I agree, brushed motors are perfect for a vintage buggy that's only ran occasionally and for crawlers. Brushed motors and ESC are dirt cheap these days. I have an SCX10 and RC4WD TF2 and doubt I'll ever install brushless systems in them.
Doug

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Re: Rc10 BRUSHED motor suggestions

Post by sbednara » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:50 pm

XLR8 wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:22 pm
I think I got my Radon the same way; an SC10 RTR. I agree, brushed motors are perfect for a vintage buggy that's only ran occasionally and for crawlers. Brushed motors and ESC are dirt cheap these days. I have an SCX10 and RC4WD TF2 and doubt I'll ever install brushless systems in them.
so when your motors get worn (how can you tell its worn out?), are you rebuilding? just replacing brushes? replace the whole motor?

I know next to nothing about these motors. i know less turns is typically faster and more turns is more torque. anyway, i dont know what rebuilding a motor really means. is that just replacing brushes? what other components would you replace? when would you just replace the brushes and not rebuild? and really, as you mentioned, with the cost of brushed motors these days, why waste time doing any of this? just buy a new and move on. (I guess thats part of our throw away society)
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Re: Rc10 BRUSHED motor suggestions

Post by RadioFlyer » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:25 pm

sbednara wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:50 pm
XLR8 wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:22 pm
I think I got my Radon the same way; an SC10 RTR. I agree, brushed motors are perfect for a vintage buggy that's only ran occasionally and for crawlers. Brushed motors and ESC are dirt cheap these days. I have an SCX10 and RC4WD TF2 and doubt I'll ever install brushless systems in them.
so when your motors get worn (how can you tell its worn out?), are you rebuilding? just replacing brushes? replace the whole motor?

I know next to nothing about these motors. i know less turns is typically faster and more turns is more torque. anyway, i dont know what rebuilding a motor really means. is that just replacing brushes? what other components would you replace? when would you just replace the brushes and not rebuild? and really, as you mentioned, with the cost of brushed motors these days, why waste time doing any of this? just buy a new and move on. (I guess thats part of our throw away society)
Brushed motor technology isn't quite like BL. The way you wind the wire makes a difference. For example you can have a 15 turn single or 15 turn double. One has 15 turns of a single large wire around the armature and the other has two smaller wires both wound 15 times around the armature. Both are similar in power output but have very different characteristics. I don't believe anything like this is being done with brushless motors but I could be wrong. This opens up almost endless possibilities for how the wire is wound and we all had our favs.

Some of us have old motors that we liked BITD. But with age the magnets get weaker and even though we don't use the motors very often they are fun to take out every now and then. If the magnets on my 15 double are weak there are two choices to restore it. Either zap the magnets and good luck finding one of those machines nowadays or just buy a new motor with strong magnets and run your 15 double armature in it. Most of these new brushed motors are for crawlers so 35 turns isn't anything to get excited about. A nice 15 double in my vintage RC10 brings back memories though. I have a drawer full of brushed ESCs so $15 for a motor means I can still use my old armatures by simply putting them in one of these new cans.

Rebuilding a brushed motor can mean replacing or conditioning several components. The brushes are one of them. There are a number of soft to hard brushes you can run and you can cut them so that the contact point has different shapes. For instance removing half the brush face longitudinally with the armature can increase or decrease the timing by a small amount depending on how the brush is installed. This is a little trick we uses to use on stock motors that were crimped together and had non-adjustable timing. Soft brushes wear more rapidly so need to be replaced more often. Hard brushes last longer but wear out the comm faster.
Another component is the commutator on the armature. This is the area that the brushes make contact with. Depending on which brushes you use the comm (as it's commonly known) gets worn and pitted. By turning the surface flat again on a comm cutter (small lathe specifically for doing this) you can get lost performance back. You can only do this a certain number of times however, as you are removing material every time.
Just as in brushless motors, brushed motors run on bearings. These go bad after a while and can be replaced.
Finally the magnets in the "can" gradually get weaker over time. There is a machine called a "Zapper" that can restore some of the magnetic strength by forcing an electromagnetic field through the magnets. I haven't seen one of these machines in years however. Today we can just buy those cheap motors and not bother.

If you are racing it pretty much is a waste of time to do anything with brushed motors. There are no classes where they would be competitive other than crawling competitions. The only reason I do it is because I have several old brushed motors and I like to use them in models that don't get used very often. Many of todays brushless motors are simply too powerful for the transmissions on older RC vehicles. A 540 size brushless today can make several times the power of the hottest brushed 540 motors that ever existed. A 10.5 in an Associated B6 is pretty fun. The same motor in a stock B2 not so much. I recently melted a diff gear in a Stealth Transmission trying to creep past 60mph on a brushless setup, something most new buggies could handle no problem.
Sean 8)

I'm going to drive it 'til the wheels fall off and burn.

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Re: Rc10 BRUSHED motor suggestions

Post by RadioFlyer » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:36 pm

sbednara wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:50 pm
so when your motors get worn (how can you tell its worn out?)
Signs that your brushed motor is worn:

1. The motor is noticably slower than it used to be.
2. The battery doesn't last as long anymore. (it's not always the battery's fault)
3. The motor runs hotter than it used to.
4. The brushes get so short that they fall through (and the motor stops functionning) or they hang up inside the hoods. (and the motor stops functionning)
5. The motor gets noisier. Signal that the bearings are worn or there is excessive comm hop. (brushes bouncing off the comm)
6. You notice excessive arcing inside the brush housing. (comm hop, motor gets hot and noisy, runs poorly)
Sean 8)

I'm going to drive it 'til the wheels fall off and burn.

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Re: Rc10 BRUSHED motor suggestions

Post by sbednara » Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:33 am

RadioFlyer wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:36 pm
sbednara wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:50 pm
so when your motors get worn (how can you tell its worn out?)
Signs that your brushed motor is worn:

1. The motor is noticably slower than it used to be.
2. The battery doesn't last as long anymore. (it's not always the battery's fault)
3. The motor runs hotter than it used to.
4. The brushes get so short that they fall through (and the motor stops functionning) or they hang up inside the hoods. (and the motor stops functionning)
5. The motor gets noisier. Signal that the bearings are worn or there is excessive comm hop. (brushes bouncing off the comm)
6. You notice excessive arcing inside the brush housing. (comm hop, motor gets hot and noisy, runs poorly)
Great info! THANK YOU!! This is the break down I wanted. what symptoms to look for and how to fix. certainly not rocket science but when motors run $10 each hard to spend much time trying to track down an issue as much as id like to. once i get a few of the lesser expensive ones I will prob take a couple apart and mix n match a couple. Any issues using components from say a 17.5 with a 21.5?
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Re: Rc10 BRUSHED motor suggestions

Post by RadioFlyer » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:37 am

sbednara wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:33 am
Great info! THANK YOU!! This is the break down I wanted. what symptoms to look for and how to fix. certainly not rocket science but when motors run $10 each hard to spend much time trying to track down an issue as much as id like to. once i get a few of the lesser expensive ones I will prob take a couple apart and mix n match a couple. Any issues using components from say a 17.5 with a 21.5?
An x.5 designation is a brushless motor. I assume you are referring to brushed motors which are designated in whole numbers. But just in case, I'll discuss both.

Brushless mix and match:
This usually works with "like" motors but not always. For instance if you have two motors from the same manufacturer and series you can typically swap the rotors. But this is not always true. With the advent of brushless motors the manufacturers have created different sized rotors for different applications. The diameter of rotors and their length can vary and make it impossible to switch from one can to another. Obviously if the rotor is too big it will physically not fit and if it is too small there will be a large gap between it and the armature which will reduce the performance of the motor. The only reason to mix brushless motor parts is if you are a serious racer. They will buy three or more identical motors and take them apart. They will test the strength of the rotors and see which ones have the best placement of the timing sensors and test the resistance of the armatures, etc...
They will then take the best parts and make one or two really good motors. They assemble the rest into working motors and sell them off. Always be leary of "brand new" motors for sale by the local track's fast guys. :wink:

Brushed mix and match:
Good news, most 540 size open endbell brushed motors follow a standard as far as armature size, length of can, size of magnets and size of bearings. There are slight variations between them but usually you can use shims at either end of the armature to get it to sit right inside the can. Mixing and matching brushed motor parts is much easier.
Sean 8)

I'm going to drive it 'til the wheels fall off and burn.

sbednara
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Re: Rc10 BRUSHED motor suggestions

Post by sbednara » Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:15 pm

RadioFlyer wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:37 am

An x.5 designation is a brushless motor. I assume you are referring to brushed motors which are designated in whole numbers. But just in case, I'll discuss both.

Brushless mix and match:
This usually works with "like" motors but not always. For instance if you have two motors from the same manufacturer and series you can typically swap the rotors. But this is not always true. With the advent of brushless motors the manufacturers have created different sized rotors for different applications. The diameter of rotors and their length can vary and make it impossible to switch from one can to another. Obviously if the rotor is too big it will physically not fit and if it is too small there will be a large gap between it and the armature which will reduce the performance of the motor. The only reason to mix brushless motor parts is if you are a serious racer. They will buy three or more identical motors and take them apart. They will test the strength of the rotors and see which ones have the best placement of the timing sensors and test the resistance of the armatures, etc...
They will then take the best parts and make one or two really good motors. They assemble the rest into working motors and sell them off. Always be leary of "brand new" motors for sale by the local track's fast guys. :wink:

Brushed mix and match:
Good news, most 540 size open endbell brushed motors follow a standard as far as armature size, length of can, size of magnets and size of bearings. There are slight variations between them but usually you can use shims at either end of the armature to get it to sit right inside the can. Mixing and matching brushed motor parts is much easier.
I did not realize the x.5 meant brushless. Thank you. i was referring to brushed motors but good to know about the brushless as well. ive got an old kyosho raider pro arr that i plan to resurrect with a brushed setup but my rc10 champ edition ive been thinging about a mild brushless system. good to know what i may or may not be able to do with those motors. appreciate your detailed information!
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