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Re: Procat rebuilt for Li-Fe batteries

Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 3:22 pm
by kaszal
Can someone help me with the rear camber link? Seems the manual setting is quite short. I'm sure modern buggies have a longer link. Which number should I use for bumpy astro turf track e.g. Stotfold, Watford etc. I'm not an expert on suspension tuning so any advice appreciated :D

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Re: Procat rebuilt for Li-Fe batteries

Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 9:21 pm
by Jay Dub
Well, in reality what you would want to do is move the link out and up on the hub carrier. But, since that is no easy option I would try the # 2 hole on that bracket, and see if you like. You may find however that it is too high to give the proper camber gain (with the works hubs). You may also find that the car squares up on power more, and will take away corner speed. But you never know untill you try it 8) .

Not sure what you mean about the sway bar though. You don't like the ones in your pic? -Jeff

Re: Procat rebuilt for Li-Fe batteries

Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 3:23 am
by kaszal
Thanks, so you think it might handle better with a longer link? Is the angle given with position 2 not ideal? In general, should you aim for the link and wishbone to be parallel?

Re: Procat rebuilt for Li-Fe batteries

Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 10:30 pm
by Jay Dub
It really depends on the track. With the longer upper link, it will give you more forward traction, and less side bite in high grip situations. This combined with a similar front camber gain will give you a more neutral handling car that will loose traction if pushed too hard (instead of traction rolling for example). This relates to something I have explained on other parts of this forum. The whole concept of every adjustment working on a "bell curve" of sorts.
Every adjustment has a maximum/perfect position, and any deviation from that adjustment means you will loose traction/speed/whatever it is you are tuning for. In this instance you could go shorter or longer than the "ideal" length and you would accomplish the same thing -less traction. However, they will react differently and this should be taken into consideration when chosing which option to try.
For example the shorter link, will usually generate more side bite in a high traction situation because it has more camber gain. However it will provide less forward bite, and can make the car loose on power (out of the corner). It is usually more "stable" in the regard that when it breaks loose, it does so less violently.
The shorter link however will allow less chassis roll and keep the car flatter. This is not necessarily a bad option, but usually not the best suited for a LOW traction situation as you are usually trying to find traction.
The shorter link may sound like a good option in high bite situations, but often times it will generate too much traction, and make the car very hard to drive at speed, and may lead to traction rolling.
If you look at most competative cars today, they have simple but very refined geometries, that use less camber gain they we have been previously used to. This is in part because of modern tires having much more traction that in years past.
The biggest issue I see with this particular rear bracket (and hub assembly) is that in order to get the camber gain in the proper realm, you will need to run the upper link as far in as possible. This is ok, but having your upper links this far in causes the chassis to flatten out on power, and wright itself. This will cause the car to seasaw back and forth on power in the corner, and make it difficult to hold a line.
This can be effective on a point and shoot track btw (into the corner hard, tight turn, and out of the corner hard), but a real pain in horseshoes, sweepers, and any portion of the track where you will be driving mid to high speed and steering.
So, to get the best of both worlds one would want to keep the inner link where you have it, and fasion some sort of bracket to move the outer link further out. This will allow the rear to hold its transitoned weight better in a corner, while still allowing you to push the car "loose" while driving the car hard.
Nowthen, this is all compounded/obscured by the flexibillity (or lack thereof) in your rim assembly, and the profile of the tires you are running (round vs. flat).
Have fun! :D :( :roll: :? . -Jeff

Re: Procat rebuilt for Li-Fe batteries

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 6:37 pm
by kaszal
Wow, thanks for all that Jeff! I'm surprised Schumacher didn't put more holes in the Works carriers for tuning options. I know the wishbones are a little longer, but what exactly is the advantage of the Works suspension? (I assume there must be some benefit) Also, when you say "camber gain" do you mean an increase in camber as the supension compresses?

Here's some new goodies and recent modifications...

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Re: Procat rebuilt for Li-Fe batteries

Posted: Sat May 28, 2011 7:22 pm
by kaszal
Jay Dub wrote:Yes, the works version had longer rear arms, and smaller rear hubs (with smaller flanged bearings). The tie rod mounting point was also further tward the wheel which would change your camber gain. -Jeff
So does that give more camber gain? Does that mean the outer wheel loses grip more easily in a turn?

Did you make the shock towers you mentioned?

Latest Procat video

Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 4:30 pm
by kaszal
Here's a video of practice today at Stotfold...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I98zJp3-WU

Enjoy!

Re: Procat rebuilt for Li-Fe batteries

Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 10:14 pm
by Jay Dub
Yes, camber gain means the camber increases as the suspension compresses.

The theory behind the works suspension was to increase the length of the suspension arm to reduce tire scrub. This in theory this should help on rough tracks, as well as make the car slighly more docile because the roll center does not move around as violently compared to a shorter arm car.

They didn't include more holes, because it was not a very popular option at the time (as there really wasn't as good an understanding of suspension dynamics compared to today). If you look at their newer hub designs, they have several holes.

As far as the outer wheel losing grip, this is dependant on the type of surface you are running on. On a low traction surface, typically you will be transfering less weight because the car doesn't have as much surface "grip". So as the chassis rolls and the suspension compresses, the wheels will camber in too much and decrease the amount of contact patch in contact with the racing surface, and the car will lose traction. So yes, allot of camber gain will mean less traction on a loose surface. One way to allow the chassis to generate more traction however is to allow the chassis to roll more (thus transfering more weight). This can be accomplished in many ways, including with your upper suspension/camber links. A shorter link will allow the chassis to roll less, and more progressivelly. A longer link will let the chassis roll deeper and more linearly. So one might think that a longer link will ultimatelly result in more traction right? Not necessarily, because a longer upper link will result in less camber gain. So as the chassis rolls, the wheel will lay over and decrease the amount of contact patch in contact with the racing surface (decreasing side bite). So in a high bite situation, more camber gain will allow MORE side bite, because the tire will stay flatter with the racing surface. It will also keep the chassis from rolling as much as the same car with a longer upper link. The down side, it the cars are usually harder to drive because they are less docile, or more "reactive".

Now this is all a matter of trail and error because there is a theoretically perfect set of camber positions for every surface/tire/spring/shock position/etc.... (this is the peak of the theoretical bell curve I spoke of earlier). So if you change one thing in your setup, it effects all the other settings.

So really, it is a compromise that is determined by the surface and tire combo etc. you are using. And the camber gain you decide to run is dependant on the feel you want from the car. Car looks good btw. -Jeff

Re: Procat rebuilt for Li-Fe batteries

Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 10:20 pm
by Jay Dub
Well, I just watched the video, and I thought it looked really good. But you are still running the front oneways aren't you :wink: . -Jeff

Re: Procat rebuilt for Li-Fe batteries

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 3:03 am
by kaszal
Thanks Jeff, but no one-way driveshafts.

Re: Procat rebuilt for Li-Fe batteries

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 12:32 pm
by Jay Dub
Ok good. The nose high attitude on the table top in the middle of the track made me think you might still be using them. Otherwise I thought the car looks like it is coming together nicelly. I love all the trick bits you have been able to round up too. -Jeff

Re: Procat rebuilt for Li-Fe batteries

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 1:51 pm
by kaszal
Front is still a bit soft (damping and springs) so that might be it. I've been collecting bits for 2-3 years now and really happy with the build... no other Schuey like it! Thanks for your comments.

Re: Procat rebuilt for Li-Fe batteries

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 3:33 pm
by 8rad
I cant believe you are using a stick radio! :shock:

Who do you think you are? Masami? :lol:

That track is massive.

The car is looking great!

Re: Procat rebuilt for Li-Fe batteries

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 4:01 pm
by kaszal
Thanks!

We Brits love our stick radios... it's your wheel radios that are weird :wink: :lol:

Is it just me, but do rc videos look faster when uploaded onto YouTube?

Eden Park Raceway is also a wicked track and maybe a bit bigger... racing model cars trains your eyesight :shock:

Re: Procat rebuilt for Li-Fe batteries

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 4:10 pm
by Coelacanth
kaszal wrote:We Brits love our stick radios... it's your wheel radios that are weird :wink: :lol:
Are your radio steering wheels on the opposite side too? :lol: