2018 Vintage Off-Road Nationals - R/C Excitement Inc. Fitchburg, MA Sept. 14-16

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Re: 2018 Vintage Off-Road Nationals - R/C Excitement Inc. Fitchburg, MA Sept. 14-16

Post by R/Cat »

stickboy007 wrote: Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:58 pm
R/Cat wrote: Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:22 pm
stickboy007 wrote: Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:00 am What is there to tech inspect? Dynamic timing is allowed in all classes with a 17.5, 13.5, or 10.5 motor at VONATS and so there's really no point in tech inspecting the cars. If you're worried about somebody running an "illegal" motor, it really doesn't matter if boost is allowed anyway. So, I really don't understand this fixation with cheating at an event like VONATS, where the rules are intentionally left open. Better to save time and run more classes that people can enjoy.

VONATS is a fun race, but it's still a race (i.e., a competition), and races have rules. Move fast or get out of the way. If you're going to intentionally block leaders from lapping you for the fifth time, because you want to be able to "race" them, then you should be fast enough in the first place to keep up with them. I agree with you that a good/fast driver should be able to get around a slow driver without issue, but if you've already been lapped then you're fighting with them over nothing and you'll just look like you're being obtuse on the track for no good reason.

I would not say that track owners/managers play favorites. It is more like the regulars at that track who know them are more likely to be able to contact them in advance. Is it fair? Well, maybe not, but it's life and there's still more than enough room at the facility for everyone. If you didn't proactively contact the track owner/manager ahead of time to even find out if they accept reservations, or take the time to get there early, then it's on you. I accept the same responsibility myself. I've attended races at "local" tracks where I was a regular attendee, and still could not reserve a space in time for a large event and ended up pitting in a dark hole somewhere. But I still had room for my equipment and still managed to race and have a good time.
So because dynamic timing is allowed there's no real point in checking motors, rotors, stators, and the myriad of other internal things that can be illegally changed or modified??? Every honest racer should want a tech inspection and every honest organizer should require it. A fun race is still a race, as you said. I'm an honest racer so an inspector could tear my car apart and find absolutely nothing illegal. Not sure some of the other participants could say the same thing. The guys who are cheating of course would rather ignore the issue and continue to enjoy the selective "open" rules. "Let me cheat and move fast or get out of my way" seems to be the mantra for the VONATs that I'm sensing. This is the first time I have ever mentioned/discussed the potential for cheating at the VONATS and I've been attending for 5 years so I hardly consider it a fixation. The fact that you are immediately labeling it as that is odd.
I think you're overstating the issue. Just look at how much you've been emphasizing it throughout this thread. You also talk about selective "open" rules, but I don't know what you mean by that. Can you cite an example of how those rules have been enforced "selectively" and specifically to the benefit of one driver over another? Have you been personally burned by some kind of enforcement of a rule that was not equally enforced on other drivers? Maybe bring the issue up directly with the event organizer, so that he understands where you're coming from. For the time being, though, you're just arguing with a guy who loves the event as much as anyone else here, is competitive but doesn't always win and is perfectly okay with that, even if other cars in the field are doing shady stuff (which I seriously doubt at this specific event), and gets annoyed when lapped traffic doesn't abide by the qualifying and racing format that has been set forth because they feel entitled to a racing battle that they're not fast enough to partake in.

From what I understand, the exact reason that boost is allowed at the event is precisely to avoid any controversy with motors and so forth (you don't have to run boost, but you are welcome to). I would love to know what are the "myriad" of other "internal things" which can be illegally changed or modified, especially at an event where vintage cars are modified in unconventional ways in order to bring something unique to the track. Do you want to tech cars for weight (or rather, mass)? I know for a fact that the NIX91 comes in under weight for a stock buggy, but I just don't care. The only person who ever had the balls to drive that car at VONATS is so goddamn good of a driver anyway, that it didn't matter. He would wheel anything, and he chose to have some fun with his NIX91. I thought it was great, even though he was faster than me and ultimately outqualified and beat me in the main. It was just cool to see a NIX91 out there in the hands of a great driver.

This is not to say that I think tech inspection is a bad idea or that I'm trying to hide something. I'm just saying that, with the way the rules are set up, and considering the spirit of the event, there's really no need, and all it really does is cost time in a program that is already quite full.
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Re: 2018 Vintage Off-Road Nationals - R/C Excitement Inc. Fitchburg, MA Sept. 14-16

Post by R/Cat »

jwscab wrote: Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:50 pm I'm certainly no great driver, and I most certainly was in the way last year fighting traction due to a poor setup and driving. I know there were instances where there was grumbling that I(or others) didn't move 'fast enough' out of the way. At that point, I did my best to try and allow faster traffic through, but at the same time, I could care less if the leaders got held up. I was on the track having fun trying to race and TRYING to move to the side. it was made worse by the guy on the mic telling you to move over.

I most certainly was not intentionally holding people up. I think R/Cat is trying to convey that sense of attitude from guys if you happened to be in the way.....you tend to have all skill levels which is why there are qualifiers......so the really fast guys can run in the mains together, and the less skilled drivers run in the lower mains. I'm ok with that really, as I know my skills aren't at the peak.

I'm looking forward to the race this year as I have been practicing and dialing in my woin car, so I'm hopefully cranking out more laps than last year. Still undecided on what I'm running on Saturday but running out of time fast. I guess I will be running the gold pan with crappy rear tires and dealing with that mess.....I should buy a wheely and just enter that. with buying the handout motor, it's really only a few bucks more for a new kit.
Exactly, Stickboy is talking about the casual spirit of the event, it's just for fun, no big deal yet guys cop an attitude if you don't move out of their way instantly. I don't intentionally hold anybody up either but I think it should be a racer's right to fight to stay on the lead lap and require faster guys to work to get around them. Like you said, it's annoying when the guy on the mic is telling the slower guys to roll over and play dead. I've made the A-main before so I deserved to be in that pack and therefore shouldn't have to give way to the faster guys coming up on me if it means I don't stay on the lead lap.
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Re: 2018 Vintage Off-Road Nationals - R/C Excitement Inc. Fitchburg, MA Sept. 14-16

Post by R/Cat »

"I think you're overstating the issue. Just look at how much you've been emphasizing it throughout this thread. You also talk about selective "open" rules, but I don't know what you mean by that. Can you cite an example of how those rules have been enforced "selectively" and specifically to the benefit of one driver over another? Have you been personally burned by some kind of enforcement of a rule that was not equally enforced on other drivers? Maybe bring the issue up directly with the event organizer, so that he understands where you're coming from. For the time being, though, you're just arguing with a guy who loves the event as much as anyone else here, is competitive but doesn't always win and is perfectly okay with that, even if other cars in the field are doing shady stuff (which I seriously doubt at this specific event), and gets annoyed when lapped traffic doesn't abide by the qualifying and racing format that has been set forth because they feel entitled to a racing battle that they're not fast enough to partake in.

From what I understand, the exact reason that boost is allowed at the event is precisely to avoid any controversy with motors and so forth (you don't have to run boost, but you are welcome to). I would love to know what are the "myriad" of other "internal things" which can be illegally changed or modified, especially at an event where vintage cars are modified in unconventional ways in order to bring something unique to the track. Do you want to tech cars for weight (or rather, mass)? I know for a fact that the NIX91 comes in under weight for a stock buggy, but I just don't care. The only person who ever had the balls to drive that car at VONATS is so goddamn good of a driver anyway, that it didn't matter. He would wheel anything, and he chose to have some fun with his NIX91. I thought it was great, even though he was faster than me and ultimately outqualified and beat me in the main. It was just cool to see a NIX91 out there in the hands of a great driver.

This is not to say that I think tech inspection is a bad idea or that I'm trying to hide something. I'm just saying that, with the way the rules are set up, and considering the spirit of the event, there's really no need, and all it really does is cost time in a program that is already quite full."

You stated the rules remain "open" so I quoted you. Selective enforcement of rules means that there are some rules that are enforced (i.e. move fast or get out of the way) and some that aren't (i.e. ensuring fair competition through tech inspection). A lack of tech inspection is an example of how a racer who cheats has an advantage over a racer who doesn't. That's was tech inspection is designed to prevent and that includes full scale racing. Nobody would know if they were burned by cheating at the VONATs because there is NO TECH INSPECTION. That's the point. It's a complete unknown unless cars start being checked. You seriously doubt any shady stuff goes on at the VONATs but you have absolutely no evidence to support that opinion. Tech inspection would provide that evidence which is why it's standard at every other legit rc race.
"...modified in unconventional ways to bring something unique to the track." :lol: What does that even mean? It sounds an awful lot like a nice way of saying cheating and nowhere in the class rules did I read that modifying in "unconventional" and "unique" ways was allowed. I think it would be great if well-established tech inspection standards that I'm sure you're familiar with were employed at the VONATs. I think it would add legitimacy to the event and attract more people since they'd know that all of their time, money and energy spent preparing would lead to a fair and honest race. Until or unless that happens, we have to assume that at least some racers are cheating and therefore it is not an even playing field. I'm a perfect example since I am questioning whether or not I will go this year and probably will not go after this year because I don't know if the racing is fair. If I want to enter an event without any tech inspection I can stay local and save a lot of time and money.
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Re: 2018 Vintage Off-Road Nationals - R/C Excitement Inc. Fitchburg, MA Sept. 14-16

Post by stickboy007 »

Ok, so your definition of selective enforcement of the rules is really just which rules are applied to everyone and which are not, based on what you'd see at a sanctioned event. I was under the impression that you thought the VONATS rules were being enforced on some drivers but not others. That being said, my short response is that the event is selective about which rules are worth enforcing for this particular event. This is not an IFMAR- or ROAR-sanctioned event with high stakes on the line, but it is a competition where some of their rules are adapted here to achieve the best combination (in the organizer's eyes) of fairness and liberty.

As far as tech inspection goes, for a race like this one, I think that's something of a philosophical question. Let us first consider the motor dimension here. I have already stated that the event permits running boost on your ESC. This means that even if someone else did have a cheater motor, its impact is neutralized by others being able to run boost on a non-cheater motor. In my own experience with 17.5, the real power comes from the batteries. If you have a fresh battery, you'll get way more power than with an older battery. If you charge your battery at high current, that will also boost power a bit. At the higher levels of 17.5 racing, it is not uncommon for people to charge at 40A or more, even though ROAR rules, as I understand them, limit charging to 1C. I charge at 5A and have no intention of turning my lipo into a bomb just to get some extra juice out of it, but if you want to tech something, then tech how they charge their batteries. Even if you did that, though, it's a very hard rule to enforce. You'd have to be watching everyone's chargers like a hawk, or have a common charging station with an attentive monitor. Again, though, most or all of the advantage to be gotten with a 40A charge is neutralized by enabling boost for everyone. This really cuts down on the time required to tech cars and buys more time for running more classes at the event and having more features (such as Concourse, Raffle, etc.). It's a balancing act, and you can only fit so much into one weekend.

Now let's consider weight. My previously cited example of the NIX91 is probably the best example I can think of. It is a very, very light car. But it's also very fragile and does not corner very well on indoor high grip tracks, unless you put a lot of work into setup. My own view is that if you're brave enough to drive that car in a field of such varied talent (who are perhaps not so good at not crashing into you unintentionally while trying to move out of the way), then you deserve to be able to run it. So should we tech every 2wd buggy to make sure it comes in at 1499g or higher? Eh...maybe. It doesn't take nearly as much time to weigh a car as it does to desolder a motor, rip it apart, measure things, put it back together (hopefully without screwing up), and re-solder it, so maybe weight can be tech-ed without much hassle. The question is whether it should, though, and I just don't know. Some vintage cars were designed to be light and if the point is to run the car in the "spirit" of vintage (which is admittedly nebulous, but nonetheless something event strives for), then weight shouldn't really matter too much in my view.

What are the other factors? Ah..."modified in unconventional ways." What I mean by that is someone doing an interesting build. If you want to go nuts and cut the gears in your Stealth gearbox, or cut the sidewalls off of your RC10 aluminum pan chassis, then have at it. If you want to put big bores on the car, then have at it. If you want to convert an old nitro car to electric (I've done this a few times), then have at it, but be sure to check that the particular chassis you're doing that to is allowed in the event. I can't say that there is a way to tech for this kind of thing, since it basically comes down to regulating style and the creative things people want to do with their vintage rides and share with others at the track.

If anything, the class that might be the most prone to cheating could be the Classic class, because of the handout DC motor with a locked endbell. But is it really? What could you do to your plastic car to make it faster? Maybe cut and drill some stuff to reduce weight and rotational mass, but is that really cheating? It's still a plastic tub chassis and as long as you're doing things that were, or could have, been done to that car during its time, then it's kosher.

So again, although I appreciate your suspicion about the potential for cheating at this event, I just don't see where it really comes in here. The biggest one is the motor/battery situation, but that's nullified by making boost allowed. Again, and again, and again, that is the *entire reason* why boost is allowed at this event in the first place, so you can cut the nonsense with inspections and controversy and just get to the racing...or get to the getting out of the way...

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Re: 2018 Vintage Off-Road Nationals - R/C Excitement Inc. Fitchburg, MA Sept. 14-16

Post by R/Cat »

stickboy007 wrote: Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:13 am "Ok, so your definition of selective enforcement of the rules is really just which rules are applied to everyone and which are not, based on what you'd see at a sanctioned event. I was under the impression that you thought the VONATS rules were being enforced on some drivers but not others. That being said, my short response is that the event is selective about which rules are worth enforcing for this particular event. This is not an IFMAR- or ROAR-sanctioned event with high stakes on the line, but it is a competition where some of their rules are adapted here to achieve the best combination (in the organizer's eyes) of fairness and liberty."

No, not at all. The issue is that only select rules are enforced while others are ignored both of which conveniently favor cheating in this situation. Again, given the time, money and effort that racers put in to participate I think more rules like tech inspection need to be implemented. It's done at the club level so why not at a bigger national/international event like the VONATs.


"As far as tech inspection goes, for a race like this one, I think that's something of a philosophical question. Let us first consider the motor dimension here. I have already stated that the event permits running boost on your ESC. This means that even if someone else did have a cheater motor, its impact is neutralized by others being able to run boost on a non-cheater motor. In my own experience with 17.5, the real power comes from the batteries. If you have a fresh battery, you'll get way more power than with an older battery. If you charge your battery at high current, that will also boost power a bit. At the higher levels of 17.5 racing, it is not uncommon for people to charge at 40A or more, even though ROAR rules, as I understand them, limit charging to 1C. I charge at 5A and have no intention of turning my lipo into a bomb just to get some extra juice out of it, but if you want to tech something, then tech how they charge their batteries. Even if you did that, though, it's a very hard rule to enforce. You'd have to be watching everyone's chargers like a hawk, or have a common charging station with an attentive monitor. Again, though, most or all of the advantage to be gotten with a 40A charge is neutralized by enabling boost for everyone. This really cuts down on the time required to tech cars and buys more time for running more classes at the event and having more features (such as Concourse, Raffle, etc.). It's a balancing act, and you can only fit so much into one weekend."

So are you saying that a racer who illegally changes a stator, rotor, etc would not have an advantage over a motor with dynamic timing? You're really making my point for me with your example. Charging current is exactly the kind of thing that should be tech'd and claiming it shouldn't be done because it takes too much time is really not a valid argument, IMO.


"Now let's consider weight. My previously cited example of the NIX91 is probably the best example I can think of. It is a very, very light car. But it's also very fragile and does not corner very well on indoor high grip tracks, unless you put a lot of work into setup. My own view is that if you're brave enough to drive that car in a field of such varied talent (who are perhaps not so good at not crashing into you unintentionally while trying to move out of the way), then you deserve to be able to run it. So should we tech every 2wd buggy to make sure it comes in at 1499g or higher? Eh...maybe. It doesn't take nearly as much time to weigh a car as it does to desolder a motor, rip it apart, measure things, put it back together (hopefully without screwing up), and re-solder it, so maybe weight can be tech-ed without much hassle. The question is whether it should, though, and I just don't know. Some vintage cars were designed to be light and if the point is to run the car in the "spirit" of vintage (which is admittedly nebulous, but nonetheless something event strives for), then weight shouldn't really matter too much in my view."

Yes, again that example adds to my point. Your personal opinion that you happen to be ok with a racer running it (b/c it's fragile, doesn't corner well) is not a valid argument against general weight standards. Racing a vintage car shouldn't mean no tech rules.



"What are the other factors? Ah..."modified in unconventional ways." What I mean by that is someone doing an interesting build. If you want to go nuts and cut the gears in your Stealth gearbox, or cut the sidewalls off of your RC10 aluminum pan chassis, then have at it. If you want to put big bores on the car, then have at it. If you want to convert an old nitro car to electric (I've done this a few times), then have at it, but be sure to check that the particular chassis you're doing that to is allowed in the event. I can't say that there is a way to tech for this kind of thing, since it basically comes down to regulating style and the creative things people want to do with their vintage rides and share with others at the track."

Again, just because you're apparently ok with cheating by cutting gears and chassis' doesn't mean it should be allowed. Tech rules are well-established and could be easily applied to the VONATs like they are to every other race. For example, your Manta Ray must be run in stock form in classic class, no modications allowed..period. Sure, a few select hop-up grades like a Tamiya ball diff that you mentioned in your YT video could be allowed as long as everybody had access to it and it was tech'd. No problem there. I just used your MR as an example so I'm not saying you were cheating, FYI.



"If anything, the class that might be the most prone to cheating could be the Classic class, because of the handout DC motor with a locked endbell. But is it really? What could you do to your plastic car to make it faster? Maybe cut and drill some stuff to reduce weight and rotational mass, but is that really cheating? It's still a plastic tub chassis and as long as you're doing things that were, or could have, been done to that car during its time, then it's kosher."

Yeah, good point. I'm sure racers have figured out how to open up, modify and close a locked-end bell motor and I'm sure it's going on. I've never done it, don't even know what to do and would never do it but some guys out there aren't as honest as me. Yes, you could make a plastic chassis lighter and keep it covered with the body so it adds to my point.



"So again, although I appreciate your suspicion about the potential for cheating at this event, I just don't see where it really comes in here. The biggest one is the motor/battery situation, but that's nullified by making boost allowed. Again, and again, and again, that is the *entire reason* why boost is allowed at this event in the first place, so you can cut the nonsense with inspections and controversy and just get to the racing...or get to the getting out of the way..."
Well, modifying a closed end-bell motor in classic or wheelie class is still an issue as is battery charging in all classes so allowing boost for brushless motors doesn't solve everything. I see you don't think it's a big deal but I think you actually convinced me to skip the VONATs and go racing short course trucks on carpet at my local track which, of course, has tech inspection. Good luck at the race. :wink:
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Re: 2018 Vintage Off-Road Nationals - R/C Excitement Inc. Fitchburg, MA Sept. 14-16

Post by stickboy007 »

I think we can certainly agree to disagree here. At least so far, I haven't had any reason to be suspicious of anyone cheating at this event. That doesn't mean it cannot or will not happen in the future, I will grant you that, but someone else cheating never affects how much fun I have. I guess this is why I approach the topic differently.

The broader problem here, which I've tried to make a point of, is time. The event is scheduled over one weekend, with several classes (each with 3 qualifiers and a main), concourse, guest appearances, raffle, etc. To tech with the rigor that you are describing will take an enormous amount of time and subtract from something else in the event. Or, it would require more man power, which has to be paid for, which translates to even higher registration fees for an event that is already quite expensive. If the event were like a "true" national level event, with several hundred entrants, then I would agree with you wholeheartedly that some kind of tech inspection would be necessary. But it simply is not and has never been that large, perhaps unfortunately.

So does the lack of time make cheating permissible? Of course not. There's just an expectation that you won't cheat, and the rules are kept fairly open and slightly flexible (i.e., you can talk to Erich and he can let you know what's okay and what's not) to minimize that possibility, and this happens to allow the event to run more smoothly. I'm not saying that's perfect, but I think it strikes an acceptable balance (in my personal view) for the entire program for the weekend.

Back to the techical arguments:

1.) Motor and battery: my point here is that doing illegal things with the motor and with charging the battery will only help you if you don't suck. And even then, running boost can close the gap. You'd be surprised how much you can get out of boost if you put the time into tuning it in for your motor (amount of boost, RPM threshold, boost rate, etc.). I've played around with boost a bit on my RC10T and it made a hell of a difference. That truck has a 1st gen Reedy Sonic 17.5, which is normally okay but not exactly fast, even with the right gearing and timing. Throw some boost in (I forget the settings, but somewhere around 20-30deg timing advance kicking in somewhere around 3000-6000 rpm) and that motor really comes alive. Now, I'm not saying that I'm some kind of fantastic driver, but I'm pretty good (or at least I was when I raced every weekend), and with or without boost, I am pretty competitive. Likewise for how I charge my batteries. So I'm just saying that, for me at least, it doesn't matter if someone else is cheating to try to beat me. I've raced against a lot of people and only a small fraction had a consistent history of cheating, and even among them, they didn't always beat me. So I'd much rather get on with the racing program than worry about whether someone supercharged their battery to 8.7V and is running a 10.5t rotor in a 17.5 can, because all they need is to crash once or twice (which those kinds of people usually do) and all of their advantage is lost.

2.) Weight: this is really up to the discretion of the race organizer. I get your point that every car should meet some basic standards. On the other hand, we have to ask what if those rules preclude certain cars from racing at all? Would you rather the field be a homogeneous distribution of RC10s and XXs? Something like a NIX91 is more of an exception than a norm, so again, for me personally, I'm ok with allowing it. It just so happens that you'd have to add so much weight to the front of it just to get it to corner, that it probably ends up weighing pretty close to 1499g anyway. I'm just saying if it comes in below that, I just don't care, because it doesn't affect how much I enjoy running my car.

3.) Other mods: so you classify cutting gears as cheating? I really don't see how it is. If you want to go through the trouble of doing it and the gearbox still functions, then what's the problem? It's on you if the gears don't last as long. As for the MR, I've seen people run them with turnbuckles, even though "stock form" has fixed camber links. Nobody complained. This particular sub-topic is a bit of a gray area, in part because these classic cars still have some modern support. For example, for the MR, you can buy GPM aluminum towers and transmission covers that were not available at the time the chassis was made. Those are readily available today, though, so should they be allowed? We could extend that reasoning to something like the gearbox internals. The TA03 diff is an exact fit to the TA01/02/DF01 chassis, with the exception that it is lighter and has a "cut" diff gear (and it was cut by the factory!). You can still buy them today as they're still all over eBay, so should those be allowed? Should I run the stock aluminum idler gear (which doesn't last as long and makes a big mess with all of the aluminum shavings), or can I swap it for a lighter plastic idler gear from a TA02? Can I run GPM universals (which weren't available for the MR back in the day), or do I have to hunt down Top Force swing shafts (which were available then but harder to find today, at least before it was re-released)? If you allow one of these things but not the other, then why? My broader point here is that you can define reasoning for each of them and it would still not change the fact that the cars are still Classic. The rules for this class don't require you to keep everything box stock. Some mods are allowed, although that list is much more restrictive if you're running a RC10 Classic or JRx.

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Re: 2018 Vintage Off-Road Nationals - R/C Excitement Inc. Fitchburg, MA Sept. 14-16

Post by dldiaz »

Man, this has become an exhausting thread to read...

Here's hoping for some cool pics of vintage R/C cars from the upcoming VONAT's!
-dldiaz

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Re: 2018 Vintage Off-Road Nationals - R/C Excitement Inc. Fitchburg, MA Sept. 14-16

Post by GoMachV »

dldiaz wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:48 pm Man, this has become an exhausting thread to read...

Here's hoping for some cool pics of vintage R/C cars from the upcoming VONAT's!
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Re: 2018 Vintage Off-Road Nationals - R/C Excitement Inc. Fitchburg, MA Sept. 14-16

Post by stickboy007 »

Sorry, guys. I'm a habitual button pusher ;)

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Re: 2018 Vintage Off-Road Nationals - R/C Excitement Inc. Fitchburg, MA Sept. 14-16

Post by duckhead »

GoMachV wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:27 pm
dldiaz wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:48 pm Man, this has become an exhausting thread to read...

Here's hoping for some cool pics of vintage R/C cars from the upcoming VONAT's!
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Re: 2018 Vintage Off-Road Nationals - R/C Excitement Inc. Fitchburg, MA Sept. 14-16

Post by R/Cat »

dldiaz wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:48 pm Man, this has become an exhausting thread to read...

Here's hoping for some cool pics of vintage R/C cars from the upcoming VONAT's!
Yes, very exhausting indeed but Renaldo seems to love a spirited debate which I can appreciate. I usually post dozens of VONAT pics each year in my Tamiya club show room but I've decided not to attend "Thunderdome" this year so that won't be happening. There will certainly be some good Facebook pics and YT videos shortly thereafter so you shouldn't be disappointed.
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Re: 2018 Vintage Off-Road Nationals - R/C Excitement Inc. Fitchburg, MA Sept. 14-16

Post by R/Cat »

stickboy007 wrote: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:10 pm I think we can certainly agree to disagree here. At least so far, I haven't had any reason to be suspicious of anyone cheating at this event. That doesn't mean it cannot or will not happen in the future, I will grant you that, but someone else cheating never affects how much fun I have. I guess this is why I approach the topic differently.

Yes, agree to disagree. Human nature is all we have to make us suspicious of cheating. Otherwise anyone cheating will keep it a well-guarded secret. Of course it can and likely is happening as there is a history with racing of it happening and people being caught at many races all over the place. Agreed, the fun factor is unaffected but the fairness factor is obliterated without tech inspection.


The broader problem here, which I've tried to make a point of, is time. The event is scheduled over one weekend, with several classes (each with 3 qualifiers and a main), concourse, guest appearances, raffle, etc. To tech with the rigor that you are describing will take an enormous amount of time and subtract from something else in the event. Or, it would require more man power, which has to be paid for, which translates to even higher registration fees for an event that is already quite expensive. If the event were like a "true" national level event, with several hundred entrants, then I would agree with you wholeheartedly that some kind of tech inspection would be necessary. But it simply is not and has never been that large, perhaps unfortunately.

Time is not a reason to allow cheating to occur. Time can be managed very easily. I for one don't see a need for 6-7 different classes of racing at the VONATs. 2WD or 4WD Plastic-fantastic class, Tamiya wheelie, 2WD modified and 4WD modified is all that is needed. Forget HM1, HM2 and whatever that new class is this year. That would save valuable time, simplify the event, prevent racers from having to rush to fix/prepare cars between rounds and, most importantly, allow time for at least a basic tech inspection. Erich should employ my excellent time management skills. :D


So does the lack of time make cheating permissible? Of course not. There's just an expectation that you won't cheat, and the rules are kept fairly open and slightly flexible (i.e., you can talk to Erich and he can let you know what's okay and what's not) to minimize that possibility, and this happens to allow the event to run more smoothly. I'm not saying that's perfect, but I think it strikes an acceptable balance (in my personal view) for the entire program for the weekend.

I've never heard of an rc or full scale race where honest racing was left up to the honor system alone...until the VONATs that is. :? Cheating would still go on with stricter rules and tech inspection but at least it would be minimized. With no tech inspection it's rampant for sure. I'd be willing to bet my entire r/c collection that if all VONAT cars were tech inspected at least one person would be caught cheating.


So what cars are you bringing to the event this year? I already purchased a 2WD slash I'll be taking to my local carpet track next week.
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Re: 2018 Vintage Off-Road Nationals - R/C Excitement Inc. Fitchburg, MA Sept. 14-16

Post by Chemical »

I asked about modifications to the track at R/C Excitement.
I heard it won't be too much different from the present layout.
The track will be run in reverse with a couple of double jumps smoothed.
They also don't want to do another total re-design for the JConcepts Fall Indoor Nationals a couple of weeks later.
Sounds wise.

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Re: 2018 Vintage Off-Road Nationals - R/C Excitement Inc. Fitchburg, MA Sept. 14-16

Post by stickboy007 »

R/Cat wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:41 pm
stickboy007 wrote: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:10 pm I think we can certainly agree to disagree here. At least so far, I haven't had any reason to be suspicious of anyone cheating at this event. That doesn't mean it cannot or will not happen in the future, I will grant you that, but someone else cheating never affects how much fun I have. I guess this is why I approach the topic differently.

Yes, agree to disagree. Human nature is all we have to make us suspicious of cheating. Otherwise anyone cheating will keep it a well-guarded secret. Of course it can and likely is happening as there is a history with racing of it happening and people being caught at many races all over the place. Agreed, the fun factor is unaffected but the fairness factor is obliterated without tech inspection.


The broader problem here, which I've tried to make a point of, is time. The event is scheduled over one weekend, with several classes (each with 3 qualifiers and a main), concourse, guest appearances, raffle, etc. To tech with the rigor that you are describing will take an enormous amount of time and subtract from something else in the event. Or, it would require more man power, which has to be paid for, which translates to even higher registration fees for an event that is already quite expensive. If the event were like a "true" national level event, with several hundred entrants, then I would agree with you wholeheartedly that some kind of tech inspection would be necessary. But it simply is not and has never been that large, perhaps unfortunately.

Time is not a reason to allow cheating to occur. Time can be managed very easily. I for one don't see a need for 6-7 different classes of racing at the VONATs. 2WD or 4WD Plastic-fantastic class, Tamiya wheelie, 2WD modified and 4WD modified is all that is needed. Forget HM1, HM2 and whatever that new class is this year. That would save valuable time, simplify the event, prevent racers from having to rush to fix/prepare cars between rounds and, most importantly, allow time for at least a basic tech inspection. Erich should employ my excellent time management skills. :D


So does the lack of time make cheating permissible? Of course not. There's just an expectation that you won't cheat, and the rules are kept fairly open and slightly flexible (i.e., you can talk to Erich and he can let you know what's okay and what's not) to minimize that possibility, and this happens to allow the event to run more smoothly. I'm not saying that's perfect, but I think it strikes an acceptable balance (in my personal view) for the entire program for the weekend.

I've never heard of an rc or full scale race where honest racing was left up to the honor system alone...until the VONATs that is. :? Cheating would still go on with stricter rules and tech inspection but at least it would be minimized. With no tech inspection it's rampant for sure. I'd be willing to bet my entire r/c collection that if all VONAT cars were tech inspected at least one person would be caught cheating.


So what cars are you bringing to the event this year? I already purchased a 2WD slash I'll be taking to my local carpet track next week.
Hey, if it were my event, I'd also run a different set of classes and with different rules (e.g., even the 4wd buggy split for this year leaves too much overlap in 4wd Classic. Some of the older cars still won't hold a candle). But...it's not my event, and I don't set the rules. I'd love to run an Egress or Super Astute re-re, but with the current rule set, there's no way they'd be competitive and so there's really no point. So, I just have to make do with what the rules are and run what I think are the best cars/trucks for those rules. As for what I'll be bringing:

1.) Classic - Tamiya Dirt Thrasher (I won with this in 2016, and it is such a great car to drive, but we only had silver cans that year. Should be faster this year with the Sport Tuned motor)
2.) 2wd Buggy - Kyosho Rampage Pro-E (electric conversion)
3.) Stadium Truck - RC10 GTe (electric conversion, with "legal" black tub chassis rather than blue chassis)
4.) 4wd Classic - Yokomo '93 Works (my only YZ10 runner that hasn't won yet)
5.) 4wd Buggy - Schumacher CAT 2000 (I've historically run a YZ10 in this class, but I figured I should try something different this time)

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Re: 2018 Vintage Off-Road Nationals - R/C Excitement Inc. Fitchburg, MA Sept. 14-16

Post by soniccj5 »

This event is what got me back into racing R/C instead of just looking at them on the shelf. Sadly I don't have nay cars ready to go this year as I have been busy with a 1:1 build. Hopefully I will be able to swing by the track(10 minutes away) to see some racing.

I know in the past VONATS the ESC had to be in blinky mode, I was unaware that boost was being allowed now. As for RCE's in house race director, he is fair and keeps the show moving along.

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