RC10Talk - The Net's Largest Vintage R/C Community

so i had 4 hobby shops id go to.. many years ago karols hobbies shut down.. f+m hobbies turned into a "trains only" hobby store..tech toys is now 1/2 the size it was (the other 1/2 is rented to someone else) lucky for me they still carry all rc stuff, but not as much..now this brings me to kenvil hobbies. i went there yesterday.. i have not been there in id say a few months..i went to stock up on some parts..i looked all over but saw almost no rc10 or losi parts.. i said what happened to rc10 parts?? he said he had some and pointed me to 2 small boxes 1 rc10 parts 1 losi parts..lucky for me i found a 6 gear diff shaft 6618 a rc10t rear shock tower and i got some of the older rc10 screws and nuts, that was about it ..there was just a little bit of the newest team associated and losi parts left in the store the rest seemed to be traxxas. i like traxxas alot but thats almost the only brand i see stocked. whats goin on with everyone else??is team associated,losi,kyosho,hpi,and tamiya going to go out of business?? and are all hobby stores going to go out of business??whats going to happen to our hobby??

It's hard to meet or beat internet pricing in a brick and mortar store, this is partly why many brick and mortar's have turned to the internet because they can increase sales without increasing overhead, equating to more profit. With affiliations, outside resources will drop ship product directly to the customer, eliminating the need for increased inventory as well. IMHO, the only way that a brick and mortar is going to succeed at all, is to focus on friendly customer service. There's been a million threads over the years about how bad most shops are, be it price gouging or flat out rude and ignorant employees. Most online suppliers bend over backwards to make the sale. Most people get their tech info primarily from forums just like this. Gone are the days where the only info you could find was in a magazine, store clerk, or group of enthusiasts, which means that the lot lizard behind the counter at the LHS has less and less value to the company and the customer.

You also have to keep in mind that in this current economy, times are tough for everyone, so businesses are downsizing or closing because they just can't afford the space and inventory when no one is purchasing. I will bet you that as the economy turns around, you'll see existing shops expand and new ones start up. It's just what happens to businesses as the pendulum swings back and forth. You see it in all industries, you just happen to be focused on RC's at the moment.

As far as the manufacturers you named, I doubt any of them are going anywhere any time soon. Yes, their sales are down with the economy, but you have to also remember that Tamiya and all the rest are world wide, they aren't restricted to a single country or market place, such as a brick and mortar typically is.

It could have other impacts to the hobby. I got into RC racing by stumbling into my local hobby shop years ago. Without it I may have never known about the race scene. How many others are never going to enter the hobby due to there being zero local hobby shops?

Another example: I am trying to get back into racing after about 10 years away from it. I live in a huge 3-city metroplex. I figured finding a track was going to be easy. It hasnt been. Almost all the local tracks are closed. One is on the verge of closing but is a 1/8th track and the one remaining 1/10th track doing well is over an hour drive away.

The hobby is dependant on discretionary income, when people don't have any money they don't buy as many "toy" cars. I know around here the hobby store is doing pretty good because they actively promote their track on the local racers forum and they're great people to deal with. I've seen them cut their prices to internet level and eat the sales tax just to make a sale, they are smart enough to know that more profit comes after the sale of a kit through accessories and parts. It's tough times for any business but real hobby stores have to be very careful. The one here has a great 1/8th scale track, we're starting our 3rd season this year, and bag on the slash as much as you want but it's one of the biggest reasons this particular shops is still open. We usually have 2 or 3 full heats of slash and I've never seen bigger smiles on those guys faces when they come off the stand after their race.

They stock up on Traxxas kits and parts, because they are mainly bashers, and very strong and durable ones at that. So off course they're going to cater to the average Joe, who only wants an R/C car to bash around in the street or in the backyard.

On the other hand, if your hobby shop had a track, then It would make sense for them to sotck up on Associated,Losi and Kyosho parts. These brands are mostly marketed towards racers, not your average basher.

Slashes play an important part in this hobby. What was your first R/C car? most would say a Tamiya of some sort, and went on from there, to higher grade/level R/C cars. Same thing with Slashes; people will start with the Slashes, once they become confident enough in their driving and wrenching abilities, more than likely, they'll swap over to a higher level car/truck.

Slashes are the gateway R/C truck for other trucks and buggies.

Most tracks now run a Slash class, my local track has it as a spec class with only 1 or 2 items to be messed with. Pretty good turn outs on raceday too. They also carry mucho racer parts AE, HPI, LOSI, etc. for all thge other classes they run.

IMHO, this is a microcosm of a couple of other threads here on the forum...

1) Walmart effect = long before there was the Internet and online retailers there was mailorder houses, which fine for the guys that didn't have a LHS but oftentimes guys that could order parts somewhere else helped (Tower, Horizon, etc.) grow into the megasuppliers they are today that can afford to dominate the hobby. So in the same manner that mom-&-pop hardware stores got squeezed out of the local retail market, the same thing has happend with the vast majority of local hobby shops.
2) Mark-up = long ago it used to be that the price (MSRP) that you saw on the box was the price of the carkit, or at least close - but nowadays there is no money to be made in carkits, versus the cost of them relative to overall inventory. For all intents and purposes the only reason shops stock any kits is just to bring people in the store, but they can't afford to carry the number they once did. Parts are where its at now, since they do for for full retail, while shops only make 10% or less on kits.
3) old vs. new = in much the same manner that real car junkyards and autoparts businesses carry the majority of their inventory based on current (10 years old or newer) vehicles, there is little reason for these businesses to carry what is called "dead inventory" (i.e. stuff that doesn't sell in volume, since most vehicles on the road today are relatively new). There is no money, except on fleaBay, in old parts they don't know when they might sell them.
4) Slot cars = back in the day slotcars were all the rage, and slotcar tracks littered almost every town and city (big and small) in the country. There was a big boom in the 1960s, that died out, that then boomed again in the 1980s - and hobby shops put in slotcar tracks in droves. It was cheap, and there existed a natural progression from slotcars to RC cars -- because the guys racing their slot cars saw the bigger and more realistic RC cars that weren't controlled by a wire or on a slot in a little track. Some of the biggest slotcar tracks that survived from the '60s into the '80s that housed 4 or 5 tracks under one roof (INDY Slots in Indianapolis Indiana for example) now house one smallish indoor RC track, and another dirt one outdoors, but as slotcars grew away from favor of the general public and RC racing superceeded them....... and now places simply can't afford RC tracks because of the afformentioned insurance issue.
5) Traxass effect 1 = while great in premise for themselves, the RTR market is all but responsible for killing the aftermarket parts market. Long ago there were literally hundreds of aftermarket parts companies in business, it's how Losi got into the biz, making doo-dads and what-nots for half the cars on the market. But since most kits today come preassembled, and there is no need for anything else to get it running, there is no motivation for people to add anything to their cars/trucks.
6) Traxass effect 2 = it used to be that there was a difference between the toy grade RCs and the hobby grade RCs, the toys were sold at RadioShack and were for bashers and the hobbygrades were sold at hobby shops for racers. But again, since most buyers today can buy a RTR car/truck out of the box and take it straight home and run it as is it leaves little motivation fo people to buy anything else for it. Most of these buyers today are one-and-done. And since it's long been said that racers only make up 10% or less of the actual market there is little reason for anyone to spend the marketing or manufacturing to make a race-specific kit.
7) Bashers = while many people THINK the basher segment of this hobby helps attract people to the hobby they never have and they never will. Back in the day regularly we'd see some father and son wander into a hobby shop or stop at a local track to run after purchasing a toy grade RC car, only to be dismayed in one manner or another at the price to actually go racing - and these guys never came back just like they don't come back today. For the most part once they've broken their traxass or whatever it gets socked away in the closet like every other toy the kid's broken over the years.
kids = today's young people grew up with video games, so in the same manner that the bicycle market is in the crapper (when was the last time you saw a gang of kids cruising the neighborhood on their schwinns, or a big pack of them playing football in the nearby vacant lot.......for FUN?) they'd rather race or play football or freaking air guitar on the TV. Kids today don't grow up "playing" and they darn sure don't grow up "working", and the RC hobby used to be work. No more. Kids (and adults) today want instant gratification, and the hobbygrade kits of a bygone era don't fulfill the mentality needed for the hobby to survive longterm.
9) Lack of racing venues = Like it or not, but this "hobby" grew out of racing, but with the move away from racing and into RTRs this has happened for three reasons: a] insurance, it used to be that facilities popped up all over and only required similar blanket insurance coverage that a playground at McDonalds required, but with today's lawsuit-happy society nimrods stood in the middle of the track and got hit and feined injurty (or not) but sued the local shop that funded the track. So now individual businesses can't have a backyard track, their insurance agent refuses to cover it, and any track today built on public or private land has to find its own high-priced coverage (it's ungodly expensive, I've looked) or affiliate itself with ROAR and have all the members/racers be ROAR members to be included under their coverage; b] bashers don't race, and don't support racing. Back in the day many shops had backyard/backshop tracks, and these attracted racers after they got to see how much fun it was to race, but those days are long behind us; c] property costs, with the maniacle rise of the property and housing market over the last 20 years (that's now falling in around us and hurting the economy more than anything individual other thing) has made it all but impractical to put in a track, it's just a bad investment.
10) We've done it to ourselves = 20 years ago it cost about $150 for an RC kit that came with nothing, and actually needed quite a lot to get up and running, whereas nowadays while that cost should be roughly double that (inflation, economic growth) instead that same baisc kit costs (for example) $200 and it comes with a cheap radio, a cheap servo, a cheap ESC -- and (perhaps the biggest abortion of all of it) the damn thing comes preassembled. And YET people still whine about the cost. So IMHO until these RTR kits get back in line with what things should cost we will continue to see a dropoff in manufacturers being involved on a large scale. It's why the owners of both Losi and Associated got out while the getting was good, they saw the handwriting on the walls.


I'm sorry, but people that somehow think the slasher/bash/class is good for the overall growth of this hobby are sadly mistaken. Sure a small percentage of these people will progress into other classes, but the overwhelming vast majority have bought a truck that there is no intrinsic need to fix or replace anything on and they will keep running them like that until the thing dies. And when it does die they won't be back. The hobby as itself took a hit as more and more RTRs hit the market, and none of them were any less raceable than the slash, so by the same token all the slash wil be is the latest fad and fads don't survive the test of time - never have and never will.

RER40, you make a lot of good points, most of which I agree with, but you are dead wrong about bashers and the Slash class. I would not be here if not for the "basher" category of r/c.

Back in the mid-80's I had a Tyco Turbo Hopper that I got from Target. I loved driving that thing around, beating the snot out of it. Then, one day a friend of mine got a Tamiya Grasshopper. Suddenly I realized how much of a POS the Turbo Hopper was, I had to get a "real" r/c car. So, I collected nickle cans for about 4 months and saved up enough to buy a Tamiya Fox package deal from Sheldon's Hobbies. I went with the Fox because it had a 540 and oil shocks and figured it would be faster than my friend's Grasshopper. It was. We would race on the streets and in parking lots and playgrounds all the time, it was a blast. Then one day I heard there was an r/c race track in my home town. My dad and I went and checked it out. I raced my Fox at one of their practice nights and quickly realized there was no way I was going to compete with the lowered RC10's out on the oval. Fortunately at that point I had a paper route and mowed lawns for money, so I saved my money again and got a Jrx2. I was a young teenager on a very fixed budget, but I was very competitive. The older guys with big budgets and real jobs would help me out with set ups and tuning, giving me tips to make my car faster and more competitive, even giving me parts now and then. On the track these guys were cut-throat racers, but in the pits they were the nicest guys you could hope to meet. Even when I was active in racing, I kept my Fox working. When I wasn't racing, I'd still take it to the playground and bash it all day.

The Slash class is a great idea. Even if it's not a new one. Remember spec classes? That's the same thing. How much fun is a kid or new person going to have if they invest a few hundred bucks in a full blown racer, head to the track and get smoked every time by the experienced racers with all the hot set ups and years of experience? I know not all tracks have as nice a group of guys that were at mine back in the day. Now, what if a new guy could show up at the track with a vehicle that is equal to the rest of the trucks in his class? Racing now becomes a contest of driving skills, not how much money you can spend. The best times I've ever had racing were in spec-like classes. Me and 4 friends in a parking lot with Tamiya Mini Coopers and Sport Tuned motors. For me there is no more fun to be had with r/c than 4 or 5 silly little Mini Coopers bouncing around a parking lot.

MelvinsArmy wrote:RER40, you make a lot of good points, most of which I agree with, but you are dead wrong about bashers and the Slash class. I would not be here if not for the "basher" category of r/c.......... Remember spec classes? That's the same thing.

Yes, but I think that puts you in the minority (and a very small one at that, like being Lithuanian-American or something)..... and honestly, "how many" spec classes have passed the test of time ?? (zip,zero, nada).

A "few" have retained very small followings in very small markets, but none on a large scale - and without large scale popularity there is no growth. And I'm sorry, but racing always has been about driving skill and a newbie that shows up and gets blown away by the slash-experts is no different than getting blown away in one of the faster classes - and what it does is ever more so create confusion because the kid's wondering if they'd ever be competitive if they can't compete on even the most basic of levels (it's like failing nursery school). In a faster class at least they'd have the excuse that they got out-spent, but here they're left wondering if they're a retard and have the dexterity of an elephant (slow and not nimble).

I'm not against the whole premise of the SCT Class, already got an SC10, but it's just that I've seen a fad fail so many times before when it's based on a one-car/spec class -- and just like last summer one local track kept a tally of how many new racers (first timers) showed up for the slashclass (57), how many continued to stay active through the fall (12), and how many showed up for any of the first few races this year (2) with the rest of the field being filled up by experienced racers that ran other classes.

So, which is it? Zero spec classes have passed the test of time, or a "few"? It can't be both. And, I still disagree with you about getting blown away in the Slash class vs the modified buggy class. There's a huge difference. Yes, racing is always about driving skills. However, the difference between learning the ropes on a stock motored Slash and a brushless B4 is huge. A new guy with no experience has absolutely no chance in a modified buggy class. He at least will at least learn how to drive better in a spec class. If someone can't finish a race in a spec class, what do you think is going to happen in a brushless buggy class? He won't even be able to keep the car on the track. New drivers do not belong in a modified class, anybody who races in those classes would agree. btw, elephants have incredible dexterity. What other animal do you know that can feed and clean themselves with their nose? A 15,000 lb animal that is very careful not to step on smaller animals under it. Pretty nimble for such a massive beast if you ask me. And if you threaten one, I think you'll find out exactly how nimble they can be.

Also, I don't think I'm in the minority at all. Very few of the people I know in the r/c hobby got their start through racing. I know plenty of people who've never even been on a real track.

The Slash class is likely a fad. It's hard to say how long it will last. It could be throught the end of this year, or it could last 10 years, there is no way to tell. But while it's here I think it's a good thing.

good info guys...oh i almost forgot there was 6 hobby stores.. id go to zeppelin hobbies to race..this place downsized/moved and got rid of there indoor track.. then they just moved again ..too far for me to go to a hobby shop without a track..then there was little morristown hobbies..cant belive i forgot this place..me and my friends would ride are bikes there when we were kids..this place had a cool set up..it was inside the morris county mall(aka murder mall) and even if the place was closed it was fun to go..outside the shop they had lots of posters/book pics of new rc stuff out or coming out. but sadly many years ago the place closed..even a little shop like that could not make it years ago when times were good.................................... im scared that if these bad times dont shutdown all my hobby shops its only a matter of time till the owners retire, and i dont see anyone wanting to take over.. whats going to happen to the hobby then??its like alot of people go into hobby stores not wanting anything but when they see something cool in front of them they gotta have it..and so you all know ,im sure i said it before, i think traxxas is great now,(i thought the nitro hawk engine was the worst rc engine ever but now i think traxxas is great,especially the slash ). but seeing almost only traxxas at the hobby shops gets me scared for the other compays..ok so i think tamiya will always be fine. what about the others?? noone can compare to traxxas,stampede,rustler,and bandit $150 waterproof, fast, 12turn 550, rtr rcs. for bang for your buck i feel like there the best deal and the only rcs people getting into the hobby are buying..

MelvinsArmy wrote: btw, elephants have incredible dexterity. What other animal do you know that can feed and clean themselves with their nose? A 15,000 lb animal that is very careful not to step on smaller animals under it. Pretty nimble for such a massive beast if you ask me. And if you threaten one, I think you'll find out exactly how nimble they can be. .

When was the last time you saw one feed themselves without the aid of their trunk, or breakdancing?

Anyway, my point was not that newbs have any business in mod classes - which is what they migrate toward because they just want to be fast (always has been that way, alway will), because they don't - and I'm not saying there shouldn't be some sort of rookie race/class for them, because there should be.

Otherwise, bashers have always bought what's available (whether its worth wasting plastic on or not) - and the majority that have never been to a track, and the majority that have no interest in going to a track (I don't have a problem with these folks), but what I was politely trying to point out was that this segment (along with the manufacturers pandering these "clients") are what IMHO causing the downfall of the hobby as a whole.
Racing breeds new/improved/redesigned products.
Bashing breeds re-branded/re-bodied same-ol' same-ol'..... where there is no motivation to improve.

The slashclass is no different than any recent one-vehicle spec class -- Bolink Legend, Trinity Spec Racer, Jammin CRT.5, etc..... and what happened to them? gone, done, finito.

longboardnj wrote: noone can compare to traxxas,stampede,rustler,and bandit $150 waterproof, fast, 12turn 550, rtr rcs. for bang for your buck i feel like there the best deal and the only rcs people getting into the hobby are buying..

Which brings me back to the question, "How many of those will a typical shop have to sell a WEEK to keep the doors open??"



As you've suggested about the current trend -- back in my RC heyday, late 1980's early 90s - I lived in a large metropolitan area in which there were 8 tracks and 6 hobby shops within 20 miles. And now, roughly 20 years later (even with the increase in population), there is two hobby shops (one of which never lived on RC alone) and one single solitary track.


EDIT = I'm in no ways bashing the bashers, just making a point as I see things. The day is almost upon us, now you can buy traxass products in PepBoys and discontinued Losi cars in ToysRUs, that the LHS and your local tracks will be long forgotten memory. And it's, just my opinion, because that faction doesn't properly support racing which was what led to all the advancements in the hobby.

I feel like we're starting to argue in circles here. There is no doubt that racing is a very important part of our hobby. Especially when it comes to developing and improving products. I've always thought that race cars made excellent bashers. But, that doesn't negate the value of the basher-only part of our hobby. There is nothing wrong with pandering to the bashers. It's a cash cow and these companies are in business to make money. They would be stupid not to cater to bashers. I don't see any downfall in our hobby at all. None. It's MUCH bigger than it was in the 80's. Yes, the lhs's are drying up, but that's mostly the result of the internet, towerhobbies.com, ebay, etc. I firmly believe that Losi shot itself in the foot when it stopped selling through tower, I know I sold my XXX shortly after. (I used it as a basher ) I see more r/c cars out in the world now than I did back then. There are tons of internet sites devoted to each little niche in the r/c world. Crawlers, oval racers, f1 racers, buggies, Tmaxxes, Clodbusters and I even heard there is a message board devoted entirely to the vintage RC10. Our hobby is growing, not shrinking.

Here is one of my bashers, it's never been on a track.

MelvinsArmy wrote:I firmly believe that Losi shot itself in the foot when it stopped selling through tower, I know I sold my XXX shortly after.

At the time Losi stopped selling to Tower because they sold out to one of Tower's competitors, Horizon.

Similar thing happened when ProLine was bought out by Associated, they stopped making tires for Losi products.

MelvinsArmy wrote: I don't see any downfall in our hobby at all. None. It's MUCH bigger than it was in the 80's.

Then please explain to me where all the tracks went?

It might be bigger numbers-wise, but the general population has also increased.
My own feeling is that it will soon turn into the same "collecting game" as HotWheels,
nobody had them when I was a kid that wasn't racing them, or Barbies - and now it's
just a bunch of adults trading and selling them on fleaBay........ and I fail to see how that's good for the hobby (unless we're all going to turn into collectors, and just talking about them).
Maybe that's where the "hobby" is heading, and I'm just saying that I'm not sure it's a good thing.



As far as the Internet goes, it's just because it is the Internet and the nature of the 'Net --
there's a lot of talking, a lot of posturing, a lot of shelf-queening, but little racing.......

As I've said before, before there was racing there wasn't a "hobby" - and without racing there will be NO hobby.
I could be wrong, and I hope I am, but I doubt it.


P.S. Cool truck, but how many of those parts would have been developed without MT RACING?