Why waste the money on the fees?

[Ron Jeremy]

The best example I can think of that proves what you say is the XXX4. The XX4 went away when the XXX4 arrived... and then it came back. In fact, it is still back. The XX4 may very well end up being the longest produced car ever. It came out when? 1997?

[Eau Rouge]

True, a B2 is very similar looking to a current B4, but there are many advancements in design, materials, geometry and efficiency that keep the B2 off of Championship podiums. And while Northy may be doing very well with an early 90's Schumacher 2wd in local Club racing (and I thought it was UK vintage club races), this is not the point of the original discussion. The original claim was that a vintage original 6-gear tranny gold tub RC10 can compete and hold it's own against current technology cars—and that is just not an accurate assessment, in my opinion.

While I'm sure a Cliff Lett or Brian Kinwald could take an old CE Stealth car and whoop up on the locals at any weekend club race (they could with just about anything), I don't think you're comparing apples to apples. The same driver with both cars will not really be anywhere close to the current tech cars with a 23-year old chassis.

Yes, current batteries, motors, speed controls, radios and tires on a vintage car will make a huge difference in their performance on the track, but you are still limited by the efficiency of the drivetrain, the performance of the suspension, and the stiffness, adjustability and geometry of the chassis. It's just NOT there in an old car.


The B2 came out in 1995 and wasn't as successful as it should have been, and gave way to the B3 in 1997—which didn't give way to the B4 until 2003. The B4 is light years ahead of a gold tub RC10 in every facet. Because of this, it makes the guy holding the radio a FAR better driver who can go a LOT faster on tracks that 1984 could never dream of.






Don't get me wrong, I have been a HUGE fan of Associated products since I got my first RC10 in 1984, but I am not wearing rose colored glasses as I look through time at the history of off road R/C racing. Yes, companies make changes in products to keep selling to the same customers, and yes, Losi's conversion of a XXX touring car to an off road chassis was NOT a success on anything other than a billiard table smooth track, but you cannot honestly say that a gold tub RC10 is in the same league as the B4 you can go out today and buy for $179 (almost half the price of the original car, by the way). It just isn't so.

Oh, and Associated has been producing a 12L pan car in some similar form since 1986.

And the Losi XX4 was out of production for a few years in there, as well, where no one could find parts for them. They brought it back when the TC-based XXX4 failed miserably at the 2005 World Championship (and other US and Euro) track(s) that did not suit the adapted XXX4 design, and team members pulled out old XX4s in haste to try to make the mains. THAT is a case where the new car was NOT as good as previous designs, and it didn't last, but you don't see people pulling out gold tub RC10s, B2s and B3s today because the B4 doesn't work anywhere.

It's not marketing and sales hype.




Don't misinterpret what I say here. I'm not saying that the original RC10 is "garbage," but like that 1955 Testarossa that cannot compete on a level playing field with a 2006 Enzo, that gold tub RC10 (a vintage classic with massive historical significance) is laps behind a B4 with the same driver.




Just the facts, ma'am.

[Eau Rouge]

And by the way, to Whisker's original post about these cars compared to new ones, I'm almost positive that very few of us have racing aspirations with our old cars against current cars. It's not a reasonable assertion to think that. We aren't a racing-based forum community here. This is really a vintage-oriented collectors discussion forum, for the most part. There are far more shelf queens and restoration projects here than bashers or "runners" and the cars that are runners, I don't believe are intended to be winning cars on race day.

And yes, while products made by Sassy Chassis and Hot Trick sucked back in the day for racing and winning titles, that's not what it's about here—it's about the love and admiration of the old products, designs and developments (even if they were poorly directed) of the golden age of R/C off road racing that was driven and built around the Team Associated RC10.





Plain and simple.

[Synergy]

I love what you say apexspeed, because if it were not for guys such as yourself and me to a degree the rc car industry and others would have fallen apart. I'm not having a go, to the contrary everyone should be allowed to do as they wish, I buy things all the time because it's new and I kid myself that the latest amplifier is going to sound better than last years model as I believe so many none international A finalists do regarding the improved performance of the latest car, there is definitely a marketing/peer pressure influence, but as I said whatever works for you. Just to make a note I believe Northy does compete in the vintage class with his Pro Cat but I also seem to remember that he has put it in the A final in open class too, but I may have read that wrong.

[Northy]

Hi,

I'll add a little here.

We started a vintage class at York (UK) for pre 1990 cars, but with a few rules. Limited to a 20 turn motor (to protect some of the weaker transmission cars), control tyre (good wear rate), period electronics where possible. The last round of the championship was last night, and it was great to see the old cars 'racing' round, I say racing as thats what it was. People were really pushing the old cars, not just running them round.

I was on the pace last night but didn't have a great night due mainly to feeling quite ill, but thats a different story. I have previously TQ'ed and won every other round. Well thats great you say, but there is more.

The week before the first round I went to the club to get the 1990 ProCat set-up. I think I qualified 5th or something in the full 4wd modified class! I was using a mod motor btw (10x2). At one of the vintage rounds (running a 20 turn motor) I was only 7 seconds of full 4wd modified TQ! So I would say the car is competative at club level.

We have an endurance race once a year and the vintage guys decided to enter a vintage team. Mainly tub chassis rc10's. We didn't discrace ourselves, we finished 3rd out of 5 teams. We were mainly beaten by the brushless 4wd boys. It really was amazing how well the old RC10's went with modern motors ~12 - 10 turns and recent cells.

Now I stress this is at club level, but I suppose the endurance was a regional level event. A couple of us have suggested running a tub chassis RC10 at one of our National meetings this year, but I'm not sure if that will happen. A mate of mine ran a Losi XX at a national last year and had his best result of the series!!!

The 6 gear transmission can not take the modified motors us guys run, but the stealth certainly can. I'm sure a modern car is quicker, but if both are well setup I think the difference could be much less than you actually think. We have embarrased a lot of people who have spent a lot of money on the latest stuff with some of the times we have been pulling out of our vintage cars this last winter

Race them guys, thats what they were made for!

G

[Janus]

The 6 gear transmission can not take the modified motors us guys run, but the stealth certainly can. I'm sure a modern car is quicker, but if both are well setup I think the difference could be much less than you actually think. We have embarrased a lot of people who have spent a lot of money on the latest stuff with some of the times we have been pulling out of our vintage cars this last winter

Race them guys, thats what they were made for!

The least season before the B4 was released some of us used Tub RC10's for our indoors winter season. Then we were lucky enough to have an indoor dirt track (in a horseranch, or whatever it's called in English), we were racing against Losi XXX's and B3's and we were keeping up with them and even beating them. The closing race we even took 1,2 and 3. The guy who used a Fireblade was having trouble getting it into the A-main though . In the final standing I got 1st overall and the other 2 RC10's got 5 and 6th over the whole winter season. We had a total blast, and when we entered the races we would have been happy just getting in the A-main.