Brushless in old buggies - bring me up to speed

[kink]

Back in the day motors were always rated by Turns. The lower the number the more time you would spend repairing your buggy and motor

What is the deal with brushless? What rating is 'normal' power for an old buggy? Something that will not kill it's transmission or cause it to crash too easily? What rating is considered high / borderline madness?

I have had a quick look - just at cosmetics, as the stats mean nothing to me. But on the looks I like Reedy and Orion as they are plain black. Are these brands good? Or are others more reliable / better made?

Any rough guide to bring me up to speed would be good. Consider I have not been into proper rc for many many years! Thanks...

[Coelacanth]

I think something around 17.5T would be similar to the power of a standard Mabuchi 540 motor, while 13.5T or so would be similar to one of the "hot" motors back in the day...at least when you factor in adjustable "punch" level with modern ESCs. I personally wouldn't want to go lower than 10T with a vintage buggy. Also keep in mind that we often used 8.4V 7-cell packs back in those days. Today's 2S LiPos start at a similar voltage and end up with less voltage than the 7.2V NiCads we ran back then, but the benefit is that they provide a consistent level of performance throughout the charge cycle, they don't get slower and slower as the battery discharges. They also live much longer as long as they're stored properly (with a partial charge); they don't have the same "charge memory" issues that you get with NiCad and NiMH batteries. That said, I wouldn't suggest running 3S LiPo batteries with vintage RC cars unless they were *seriously* bulletproofed to handle the much greater stress.

[RC104ever]

They do still rate some brushless motors in turns, and others in kv. For me, kv makes more sense because the higher the kv, *generally* the hotter the motor is e.g. 5700kv is faster than 4600kv, all else being equal, but the higher kv motors have less torque.

But to put it in perspective, if you read the Castle website, it talks about how their 4600 kv motor is roughly equivalent to a 12 turn motor on 6 cells.

The bottom line is this:

1. Do you want to go faster?
2. Do you want longer run times?
3. Do you want less maintenance?

If you answered yes to the above then make the switch to brushless. While you're at it, you might as well switch to Lipo with a new ESC because they are so much more sophisticated today.

[Coelacanth]

These days, several eBay sellers sell motor/ESC/program card combos that will replace your whole electric powertrain, excluding a LiPo battery & 2.4 GHz radio system, that is. Those combo packages start at around $100 shipped and go up from there, depending on how powerful the motor & ESC are. I think for vintage 1:10 cars, you're looking for a 30A to 60A ESC setup with anywhere from a 10T to 17.5T motor. I remember some of the hottest motors back in the day were over 20,000 RPM; the Kyosho Le Mans 240 SB was up there and I think it put out 22K rpm. Modern motors, for example a 3300 kV motor, would hit over 24K rpm (3300 x 7.4). That's why I wouldn't choose a motor that's much higher than that, in terms of kV.

Frankly, anything much hotter than that will be uncontrollable unless all you want to do is high-speed impress-the-neighbors straight line speed runs on your street. If you plan on turning left or right, 1:10 RC cars going much faster than 30 - 35 mph will be a tad too much to handle predictably.

[kaiser]

orions are rebranded hobbywings and command a premium price, just buy a hobbywing. you can get them in black.

i've never used a reedy system.
novak has let me down more then any other brand.
tekin's are awesome.
lrp's are awesome.
hobbywings are pretty close to awesome, and the their pricing is awesome.
castle, i never ran one but have seen dozens overheat in person.

for our oldies a nice 17.5 motor with a good esc is all you'll ever need. get an esc with timing and boost, that way if you want more power you can just dial up the timing and add some boost. a 17.5 can go from silver can power to mod power with just a little tweak of the esc.

[kink]

Thanks guys, loads to think about. I'll have a look into all your suggestions and get back to you...

[RC104ever]

Not trying to sway you but I've got all Castle in my cars and they have never overheated. Guess it depends on gearing?

I personally like them but have run Traxxas, Reedy, Hobbywing and Viper. I still like Castle.

[Coelacanth]

Here's what I'm running in my oldies:

Zebra Optima (chain-drive Optima): LRP A.I. ESC, mystery black-can motor, I think 14T
CYANide Optima (onroad conversion resto-mod): Castle Sidewinder, SpeedPassion 17.5T
Barney Optima (beastified resto-mod): Bullistorm 60A ESC, Tacon 11T/3200 kV
OptiMutt (RWD-only modded Turbo Optima Mid SE): Leopard 60A ESC, 12T/3300 kV

[SFC K]

novak has let me down more then any other brand.

That is interesting to hear I have three different Novak brushless combo's and all have done me well over the years. I even ran the Novak Havok 8.5T brushless system in my Blitz on my last deployment in Kuwait last year and never had any overheating issues or other issues for that matter. The Traxxas and Castle sytems my buddies were running over heated all the time.

Curious to hear what issues you had.

I have heard nothing but good things about the Hobbywing systems but they are out of stock a lot depending on where you look.

[Mike DeLaney]

Thanks kink for bringing this topic up. I have thinking about switching to brushless and lipos in my B2 buggy. Thanks for info guys.

[kaiser]

novak has let me down more then any other brand.

That is interesting to hear I have three different Novak brushless combo's and all have done me well over the years. I even ran the Novak Havok 8.5T brushless system in my Blitz on my last deployment in Kuwait last year and never had any overheating issues or other issues for that matter. The Traxxas and Castle sytems my buddies were running over heated all the time.

Curious to hear what issues you had.

I have heard nothing but good things about the Hobbywing systems but they are out of stock a lot depending on where you look.

gtb, up in smoke with a 17.5. i had 2 gtb's smoke on me, that's when i stopped using their esc's. (no i didn't plug them in backwards lol)
not a gearing issue at all, i rarely have a hot motor or esc.
8.5t and 10.5t ballistic motors, both had bearings die a very early death, the 8.5t only had 2 race days on it and the 10.5t had maybe 6.
it's a shame too, i really liked those ballisitic motors. i treat my gear very well and rarely have failures, all of this happend over a summer a few years back and i switched to tekin and have had zero issues.

the only novak motor i have left that has no issues is an ancient 17.5ss, one of the early ones. great motor but they don't make'em like that anymore.

[Orange]

I have a Tekin RS (Not the pro version) in my RC10 runner. And it has been very good. The one thing that really was not covered here, is that brushless motors have much more torque than what you might have been used to with brushed. I threw a 8.5 brushless in my runner at a race last week during practice and had no issues at all with an old stealth tranny. The wheelies were fun, but not recomended because it was way too much! I would not try anything lower than a 17.5 in a 6 gear tranny and that might be pushing it a little.

I have run Reedy, Orion, Hacker, LRP, Novak, Peak, Tekin, Speed Passion and Trinity brushless motors since they got popular several years back and have never had any issues. I have also used LRP, Hacker, Novak, Speed Passion, Orion and Tekin ESC's over the past several years without issues except for one time with a Tekin ESC that I got a little crazy with the boost feature. I think it is more personal preference like maybe you like a certain color or something.

I don't think it really matters much what you get, just gear and maintain it properly and it will last quite well. My best recomendation would be to make sure you buy a sensored motor and ESC.

hope this helps,

[longboardnj]

.

But to put it in perspective, if you read the Castle website, it talks about how their 4600 kv motor is roughly equivalent to a 12 turn motor on 6 cells.

thanks for this info i didnt see this on the site .. 4600 is a great all around set up. i use 4900 reedy motors in b4/t4 . also i only use nimh bats so if your using lipos your results may differ. 5700 is the fastest id go in anything new but id stay away from that motor if its for a old buggie.(my buddy has faster motors then the 5700 and it rips the tires apart). 3800 4 pole sct motor esc set up is nice too. my rc10 stealth was great with the 4900 around the track . plenty of power and i really liked how it handled . just had to take it easy cause some of the stuff id do with my b4 would wreck the old rc10. kinda thought it must be like driving a 427 cobra around a track . (they say the 427 cobra chassis would flex and if you powershifted you could blow the rear but it was a super track car)

[EvolutionRevolution]

novak has let me down more then any other brand.

Curious to hear what issues you had.

I have heard nothing but good things about the Hobbywing systems but they are out of stock a lot depending on where you look.

The most reported problem with the Novaks is that they tend to spontaneously combust with no apparent reason.

For Hobbywings, try Ebay.

[kink]

I have been perving over NIB old school brushed motors. I guess the retro vibe is appealing as they would suit my buggy more. Heart says brushed, head says BL...