2010 -- VONATs -- Class Entry Discussion

[losiXXXman]

I'm new to the forum, have not attended a Vonats,(though would very much like to one day), but thought I'd weigh in on a very lively debate. As the rece is only two years old and still growing, you obviously cannot break into too many seperate classes for the issue of only 3,4, or 5 cars in each class. Here's what I think would be cool. As far as Nicd/NiMH/Lipo and Brushless/brudshed - run what ya brung within equal limits. 2.2's fine, though they look a little funny on the frog, noone can deny that a race with no traction would be no fun.

Chassis classes - How about a box stock classics - frog, hornet, etc. and a modified classics - with period or home-designed and built mods. (obviously the grasshopper chassis with stealth tranny would be disqualified however - I;m sure some of you have seen that car).

As for the 2wd class, I was surprised to learn when I first stumbled upon this that the XX was considered vintage. I would not have classified it "legal" for a "vintage" event. Maybe the real cut-off should have been 92'ish. Making stealth, JRX2/pro legal but eliminating the XX. (By the way I love the XX it was the first buggy that I actually became competitive with and I owned 3 or 4 of them in my busiest racing days.) As far as new vs old tech anyways, didn't siebelbach and his buddy both place inthe top ten in Germany's nats?..

I put down my pen.

[tecnica2001]

Hey Scr8p,

I'm an RCHR local and don't want things to change, I just want to know what would qualify into what class...

I've tried suggesting running a vintage class every once in a while, and Steve S. also offered to do a Pre VONATs race, but no one went for it.

What we did this year was to run the Vintage stuff in with the modern cars, for about a month leading up to the Nationals.



So you better show up next year...

[tecnica2001]

I'm new to the forum, have not attended a Vonats,(though would very much like to one day), but thought I'd weigh in on a very lively debate. As the rece is only two years old and still growing, you obviously cannot break into too many seperate classes for the issue of only 3,4, or 5 cars in each class. Here's what I think would be cool. As far as Nicd/NiMH/Lipo and Brushless/brudshed - run what ya brung within equal limits. 2.2's fine, though they look a little funny on the frog, noone can deny that a race with no traction would be no fun.

Chassis classes - How about a box stock classics - frog, hornet, etc. and a modified classics - with period or home-designed and built mods. (obviously the grasshopper chassis with stealth tranny would be disqualified however - I;m sure some of you have seen that car).

As for the 2wd class, I was surprised to learn when I first stumbled upon this that the XX was considered vintage. I would not have classified it "legal" for a "vintage" event. Maybe the real cut-off should have been 92'ish. Making stealth, JRX2/pro legal but eliminating the XX. (By the way I love the XX it was the first buggy that I actually became competitive with and I owned 3 or 4 of them in my busiest racing days.) As far as new vs old tech anyways, didn't siebelbach and his buddy both place inthe top ten in Germany's nats?..

I put down my pen.

Nooooo don't eliminate the XX... that's what I ran at the Nationals and came in 7th overall, all joking aside, if the year date was to be moved back, I would buy a period correct car to run. I run the XX cause it's allowed...

[Mazdaj]

I wasn't trying to start any controversy-just giving my thoughts on a hobby that is very dear to all of us. My comment regarding cost of racing I guess goes with any sport/racing industry-be it RC or full scale.
Here's a "full size" example. Being from the northeast US, we run a type of full size race car called modifieds. Scr8p, being from Northhampton,PA may know of the Hirschmanns, Tecnica2001, being from CT may know of modifieds from local news. Anyway, full blown modifieds ruled the northeast until the mid '80's, until the cost became too much for a weekly division. The SK modifieds were born-a low buck modified sharing the same chassis, but with a smaller, less expensive motor. SK's ruled the local scene for years. The full blown modifieds became a touring division, which currently has only 13 races on the '09 schedule. The SK's took the same route as the full-blown mods. Now, a local track has introduced within the last three years the "SK Lights"- the same chassis as the tour mods or the Sk's but with a GM crate motor. It just seems like a trickle-down effect, as a basic division is introduced the cost eventually escallates to the point where people either stop racing, or another less expensive division is formed. Hopefully there is enough people to fill these divisions. I suppose that is the competitive nature we all talk about. I just hope it doesn't discourage people from taking part in our hobby. By the way, I read with positive reviews of this years VONATS-I was in VT for a wedding and was unable to attend. Hopefully next year. Thanks to all for reading this.

[tazz888]

Not all people are going to go and buy and pre 94 car just to run this one event.

that's not my problem. there are a few simple rules to follow for this race. if you can't abide by them, well..... then you can stand/sit and watch, or just stay home. this is my opinion, and anyone can feel free to dislike it.

apparently i wasn't done........

so who were they guys that were talking about uping the cutoff to '95 because they have t2's, b2's, xx-t's, etc...... and won't buy a pre-'94 car to race once a year? the local racers of rchr? if that's who it is, why couldn't you guys run a vintage class once or twice a month along with your regular program? atleast that way, they would get more use out of their pre-'94 car/truck investment.

Wow!!! I must have hit a nerve. I first heard about upping the year mentioned at RCHR shortly after the announcement of the 09 race. I was told about it by a few of the locals who frequented this form at the time, participated in the 08 race and already own pre 94 vehicles. 90% of the RCHR locals have legal cars by the current rules. I do not know who started the original talk about the year, I just know that I was originaly against it.

My post about reconsidering the cut off year was purely for the possible growth of the event. What you may not know about me is that I am the ROAR Region 1 Assistant Director and a candidate for Director in this years election. I am always looking for ways to improve the participation and promotion of the hobby at tracks in my region. I'm sure there are people across the country (NOT just RCHR!!!) who may want to participate in the event but can not afford a pre 94 car, but may own a 95 car. It was just a suggestion and not ment to be negative in any way. Sorry if I offended you.

[scr8p]

well i look at it this way...... it already grew to a larger field than last year using the same rules. i see no need for them to be changed.

here is my biggest problem with changing it. let's say you open it up to '95 so some guys can run their b2's. well, a b2 and a b3 are more or less the exact same car. the b3 was associated's 2wd weapon of choice until the b4 came out in when..... 2004 or something like that? so explain to me how that is vintage? i will still argue until i'm blue in the face that the losi XX shouldn't be legal either, but because it technically came out in late 94, it's legal. and just like the associated b3, how long was the xx losi's main 2wd car......... until '98-'99? not vintage in my eyes, and i know for a fact i'm not the only one that feels this way about it.

for the record, i'm not opposed to it because i feel like the people that run these newer cars have an advantage over me. i'm opposed to the fact, that in my case, i'll be driving 4 hrs one way and spending a bunch of money to compete against cars that i could race against at my local track on a weekly basis. saving a whole bunch of money in the process.

[tazz888]

well i look at it this way...... it already grew to a larger field than last year using the same rules. i see no need for them to be changed.

here is my biggest problem with changing it. let's say you open it up to '95 so some guys can run their b2's. well, a b2 and a b3 are more or less the exact same car. the b3 was associated's 2wd weapon of choice until the b4 came out in when..... 2004 or something like that? so explain to me how that is vintage? i will still argue until i'm blue in the face that the losi XX shouldn't be legal either, but because it technically came out in late 94, it's legal. and just like the associated b3, how long was the xx losi's main 2wd car......... until '98-'99? not vintage in my eyes, and i know for a fact i'm not the only one that feels this way about it.

for the record, i'm not opposed to it because i feel like the people that run these newer cars have an advantage over me. i'm opposed to the fact, that in my case, i'll be driving 4 hrs one way and spending a bunch of money to compete against cars that i could race against at my local track on a weekly basis. saving a whole bunch of money in the process.

Point taken....

Personaly I have no issues with the current rules. Like I said back on pg.3..... "If it aint broke don't fix it". I also agree with you about the XX. I look at it this way.... what buggy has won both years so far?..... RC10.

[scr8p]

I look at it this way.... what buggy has won both years so far?..... RC10.

that's a trend i don't see changing anytime soon...... for 2wd anyway.

[glowster21]

My son and I missed last years race but were able to make this years. We both ended up running JRX2's in 2wd, he ran a Falcon in Classic and I ran a Yokomo 870c in 4wd. I ended up qualifying 4th in the A in 2wd and finishing 5th, Qualled and finished 2nd in 4wd, and Nicky took 2nd in the C in 2wd, 3rd in Classic. The mods to his Falcon were quite simple. I had to put Kyosho Gold rear shocks on it because when we dug it out of the trash 2 years ago there were no rear shocks on it and it was either those or current shocks off an RB5, and I stuffed Kyosho wheel hubs on it to run 2.2's.
I have absolutely no problem with the rules the way they are now, but I do think there was a bit of an integrity issue with the "Gentlemans Agreement" regarding what's legal and whats not. I ran a XX part of the time because the XX, in STOCK form, was legal based on the rules. My concern is that I marshalled an awful lot of so called "XX's" throughout the weekend that were actually "CR's", not to mention the XX-T that was running in Stadium Truck. I ask this, whats the freakin' point of having rules if people are going to try to find a way around them?!? I had a XX-cr, and a brand new "cr rear end conversion kit" in my box of RC stuff but neither of them saw the track, or the inside of the building on the weekend of the race. I guess what I'm saying is, if you want to gripe about rules then make sure that you are actually following them before you gripe about them.
The race was fun, most of the racers were fun to talk with, the atmosphere was outstanding, just follow the freakin' rules!
Brandon, Brian S, Stephen M, Erich, it was AWESOME to meet and hang out with you guys. You are a HUGE part of the reason I had so much fun at the race. The RCHR "Usual Suspects" Freddy, Raul, Ron, Kyle, Jay it was a great weekend as usual hanging out with you guys. I could have been driving a brick with 4 tires and still had fun running with the group I mentioned; oh wait, I was running a brick! I think my Yoke weighed like 8 pounds
Seriously though and then I'm done, I follow the rules because without rules we would have pure chaos. I have no problem with Freddy's modded Bearhawk to make the rest of the race or Brandon's "Super Frog" because that thing was crazy fun to watch! But the bottom line is, those guys all followed at least the spirit of the rules, kept it to cars that hit the streets in 1994 and prior, and really didn't look for crazy ways to push the envelope. To the folks running XXcr's and XX-T's, c'mon now and follow along with the "Gentlemans Agreement" for the 2010 VONAT's. If you need a car prior to 1994, I have like 8 JRX2's and Pro's, 3 JRXT's, 2 JRT's, an LXT, and a handful of RC10's that I'd be happy to give you for a fair price, or even let you run just for the race weekend and then return. Let's keep it fun and keep it legal to at least the rules we ran with in 2009. I'm off my soap box now, sorry for the long rant and hope to see even more entries for 2010! I know I'll have 4 and Nicky will have 4!

[tecnica2001]

Man...

I went from having 4 Legal VONATs Entries, to one and a half -- Kyosho Lazer ZX and half of my RC10T, quick change hubs, and rulux wheels are not Vintagy enough...

I guess I'll just have to save some money to get two more rides for 2wd and Classics... the thing is, what do I tell the wife...

Seriously, If anyone had a real problem with anyone's entry, why wasn't it mentioned there and then, It wasn't like anyone was gonna go postal on anyone, In my case, if someone anonymously would've mentioned something to Erich, John or Mark, and they came up to me and told me my cars aren't VINTAGY enough, I would'nt have run them.... Honestly, this whole thing has really turned me off a bit.."

Anyone interested in buying a Hacked Tamiya Bearhawk and a Non-Vintage Losi XXcr?? I'll give you a good deal...

I'm running this in both 2wd and Classics... I think it should qualify for both:

[glowster21]

Freddy,
You were not at all included in my rant on the "Gentlemans Agreement" . We all knew what you were running, you didn't try to hide anything. It's the guys who kept their stuff under wraps all weekend long that bothered me. As far as people bringing it to anyones attention, why bother? When you operate under a "Gentlemans Agreement" it's expected that other racers will either say "hey guys, this is what I'm running. If anyone has an issue with that then let me know!" When you're racing toy cars for bowling trophies, really nice personalized plaques in this case, it just becomes a matter of principal and integrity. Like I said, I have absolutely NO ISSUE with what you were running in any class because you did just what I said and we all knew what you were running. As far as I'm concerned your Bearhawk is fine in classic because it's just that, classic! Nicky's Falcon only finished 8 seconds behind you and Brandon's Frog so that should prove that both your classic entries were just fine. He's 10 and if he drove a little cleaner during the main it would have been the 3 of you finishing at the same time instead of the awesome show you and Brandon put on in the last 10 seconds of the race (which was by far the most fun race to watch the entire weekend ) . Did your 2wd entry give you an unfair advantage over anyone else? Absolutely not! Did you you try to hide your buggy all weekend long, the previous 2 weeks before the race, or last year? Absolutely not! If anyone had said (aside from me joking around with you ) that they had any problems with your entries, you are a very honest person and would have made whatever changes you needed to because you have a little quality that I think is lacking in a lot of folks called integrity. Please don't let my soap box rant turn you off in any way, you are a true gentleman in every sense of the word and don't go looking for any more cars. If anyone complains about the fact that you're up front and honest, I'll give you a car to run.
That way I can "Sponsor" 2 great guys and cool racers at the 2010 race . It's all about having fun and even though I was a bit "frosted" so to speak about the way some folks hid their rides to try to get through the weekend, Nicky and I still had an absolute BLAST at the race and we're looking forward to next year. I'm already excited to see you and Brandon do battle again, you with your awesome Bearhawk and Brandon with whatever killer Classic he comes up with since he retired the Frog. Nicky's gunning for you guys and with him getting a full year of off road under his belt before the next VONAT's it should be a ton of fun to watch him go at it with you guys.
Let's all just have some good, clean fun!

[MelvinsArmy]

"We're in the same class."

"I'm dominating."
[youtube]z2CTihQy_XE[/youtube]

[fatkidracing14]

lol thats just wrong!!!!

[scr8p]

Seriously, If anyone had a real problem with anyone's entry, why wasn't it mentioned there and then, It wasn't like anyone was gonna go postal on anyone, In my case, if someone anonymously would've mentioned something to Erich, John or Mark, and they came up to me and told me my cars aren't VINTAGY enough, I would'nt have run them.... Honestly, this whole thing has really turned me off a bit.."

i announced my displeasure towards the losi xx being legal months before the FIRST race, so it should come as no surprise i still feel the same way. but, since erich said they were legal, ya can't be going back on it now. well, you could but........... whatever.

i have no idea what the problem is with your bearhawk since i have not seen it other than in the video. year wise it should be legal.

i also don't see a problem with your 10t either. most of the guys have some sort of modern parts on their cars to mount modern wheels on their vintage rides. that is just something that people are gonna have to look past.

[badhoopty]

Man...

I went from having 4 Legal VONATs Entries, to one and a half -- Kyosho Lazer ZX and half of my RC10T, quick change hubs, and rulux wheels are not Vintagy enough...

adding bits of new school to old rigs is what makes it cool in my opinion...