Holy posts Batman!!! I'll try to address everyone's input (positive and negative... or however may fall in between). I do read everything you ALL say and I listen to and appreciate everyone's input whether it comes off as neg or not. I want you to come... of course I'm going to listen otherwise I'd be playing with my toy cars by myself.
• In general... I have to be honest. With the exception of possibly two cars last year (you know who you are), I don't know what this "heavy modification" you guys have your panties in a wad about is. if adding longer axles and hubs so that you can run modern tires is heavy modification to you, what hobby did you grow up with? The cars I've seen at all 3 years of Vonats were probably more accurate with those exceptions than anything that ran back in the day around here! The year before I don't remember too much as far as cars that weren't very close but again I remember one truck that was modded a little bit... and I mean a little as in he made a new shock tower because he didn't want to buy one off ebay for 20 bucks, it still had the same geometry and the steering cranks he made were the same sort of deal... yes they moved the servo the other way but in a era where people servo taped servos in and made things work how they wanted I don't see how that's considered unauthentic. His cars both years pushed what started as a vintage car into something he made himself in a sense but knowing him since we were 11, believe me he did the same thing to those cars back then too and he didn't really design his own car as much as straighten out what was originally wrong with the car in the first place after 20 years of use. If that isn't an old school racer in your mind you have no idea what you're talking about. First year, again not too sure aside from hubs axles and tires (as far as 2wd went at least). Brandon's Frog was ballistic but short of the tires he put on it there wasn't really much on it that wasn't available out of the CRP and other catalogs 20 years ago. Shame on you purists for not spotting that (kidding)
why cater to people? why does it have to be "everyone gets a chance to play"
i know i'm kinda giving you a hard time about this, but i still love you man.
Because I want as many people (especially those that don't know we exist) to see how much fun OLD r/c cars are and how much there is to our hobby AND it's history. By making it a little loose around the edges I realize that I walk the fine line between keeping purists like you guys happy and letting a guy who has a b4 and remembers his rc10, "and up in my parents attic still", run and be part of our segment of the hobby. Not to toot my own horn (yet I will here) but I'm sure there are more than a few people that are active members of this board because of the race and had no idea we were here before it. It's all good Jason, I know you mean only the best, hell you call me personally to shoot the S (BTW I'm due a phone call ya know lol) and even more importantly I know you would have come if it weren't for other circumstances the last couple years. I hope you can make it this year, it'd be great to see you brother.
Charlie don't surf wrote:Anyway, all BS aside this is a "happening" more than an actual race so to speak anyway which is
a big part of the draw-... They are toy cars for bowling trophies, even better-they are old toy cars driven/carried/dusted by guys that are linked by a common passion. This should flow way better IMO-
GOD BLESS YOU!!!! This is what I've tried to pound this into people (manf included) for four years now. Leave it to an oval racer to get it. Thank you so very much for putting into 3 short sentences what usually takes me 20.
MelvinsArmy wrote:My whole point is this specialty vintage event seems way more concerned with pulling in big numbers than running something that looks like a vintage race. I could care less about a bowling trophy or even placing in the top half of the field. I would like to finish the race weekend, but honestly I don't care where I place. I'm there to have fun and race vintage radio controlled cars and nothing more. I really don't know why people need to treat it like a Sunday race day for points, arming their cars to the teeth with every single modern piece they can fit. They are the crybabies, by definition, they have to win at any cost and will by stretching any reasonable definition of vintage. That's not vintage and in my opinion it's not fun either. It's Kramer going to kids' karate class. That's what turns me off. It's quite clear who values the bowling trophies, it's not those of us who are there to race old cars.
Melvin you should know that I respect you well beyond that of as a mod on this board that single-handedly supports the race, but also as a friend and one of the few people in this hobby I have a lot in common with beyond r/c (music, art, bmx, etc). I don't mean to call you out but I read that as you don't care as long as you get to run your cars on the track and have a good time doing it... THAT IS EXACTLY the point but that's why I'm confused One of your big points that I'm trying to understand was wanting to be able to run a motor to make your Clod be able to keep up with everyone else in the class and that cars that aren't as vintage shouldn't be allowed to run because they out perform true "vintage" cars... that sounds pretty competitive to me. I agree that there needs to be a point where someone is told no they can't run what something that's out of control but like I said in the first reply here... I think making it so you can get tires that are available and work on your car isn't ruining a vintage car as making it more enjoyable to play with. I agree about the value of the trophies and this is the thing that's made me the most sad about the race... that some people treat this like they're going to put it on their race resume and become the world reknowned "vintage champion". All I ever wanted was to see people who like old cars play with them together. So like I said, i hope I don't come across like I"m coming at you, by all means I mean quite the opposite. I'm challenging you or asking you or however you feel it was put so that I can understand more clearly what you mean. You're a good friend and have always been a big support for my idea and I thank you to the end of this hobby.
Charlie don't surf wrote:
And to further what you said, I think that this race would be better held on the loose dirt outdoor track at that facility, where old rubber and suspension was meant to be used
You post reply whore!!!
I've thought about this often and when RCHR built the track last year i hadn't seen it since I rarely get to race at all during the year. I decided to do it and leave it indoors for a couple reasons aside from the obvious of not knowing what the track was like or if it would be good for our cars. I also consider the weather here. I have the race in Sept because as Scr8p said, it is one of the best times of year here as far as weather but if the last 3 years races weather reports show anything its how unpredictable CT is when it comes to weather. Year 1 is was 90 and about 3000000% humidity only to result in a monsoon rain that flooded peoples houses. Year 2 it rained and was sort of cold most of the weekend... in the 60s if I remember correctly. Last year was IDEAL!!! I think it was about 75-80ish and dry as a bone the entire week. THAT is the weather I live here for. Who knows what this year could be and what I'm afraid of, esp in this economy, is having people spend a good amount of money to come to a race and have to deal with weather. Could we do it outdoors and if it rained move inside? SURE but I would never presume to ask Mark and Jon to build 2 (yes they custom build the track for our race only) tracks nor would I want to see the race start outside on one track and then have to throw all that away because we're inside and on a different track and start over. Even in SoCal... they either race indoors or they race outside and if it rains... they race in the muck or the race is canceled... bottom line neither of those are acceptable to me, especially when I've my friends on this board come from all over the country to visit my home.
Geez, some of you are too much, I'm sorry I called anyone a crybaby.....
I'm sorry for being such an ignoramus, I'll try to contain my urge to be ignorant.
It bothers me to see that such an awesome event its turning into such a hassle...
Erich if you told me that I couldn't run my XX, I would've gotten something else to comply....
Freddy I don't really feel like anyone called you any of that. I believe I'm the only one that brought your name up and I meant it in a manner of support... that if it weren't for the way things are you couldn't have become a part of all of this, this board included and THAT would've been the biggest shame. You're contributions to both this board and to the race are why I consider you a personal friend. I know that you've helped a lot of people on here as well as at RCHR out of the kindness of your heart... because that's who you are. Your XX will NEVER be an issue and not even the car your daughter ran that some had an issue with. Shame on anyone that would take a little girls opportunity to have fun with her Dad and friends away. She could show up with a hoverboard and I'd let her have fun... like I said to her when you asked me about the car "are you going to drive this car and smile? (she nodded) Are you going to have a great time with your dad this weekend? (she nodded) Then sweetheart race whatever you want and have fun". Anyone who feels otherwise about how I handled that needs to reassess much more than just their hobby... they need to take a look at themselves.
bearrickster wrote:Erich this is your sand box, your race. I for one want to come and play, Everyone either build a car as per the rules or go race somewhere else. its the same thing every year, wine, wine then most don't come anyway.
Rick thank you but I disagree... This is EVERYONE'S race and their time to meet their friends face to face. I don't consider any of it to belong to me nor do I consider it a hardcore race. To me in my mind it was always a hangout with and excuse to try and give each other a run for our money. I DO HOWEVER agree that everyone should just build what they can to come have a good time. The problem for some is that there aren't enough rules and things aren't specific enough maybe but I invite them to bring what they want and make of the experience however the wish. If they weren't satisfied that their 25 year old car was beaten by a car what was updated I challenge them to consider how they did against others that felt the same way and ran similar things to what they did... this is how true vintage races are. They aren't about if a 1963 F1 car is faster than a 1978 Can Am car... it's about seeing a 1978 Can Am and 63 F1 car in operation on a track again. We all know which one would crush the other but it doesn't really matter... the nostalgia does. Now I know those who oppose the way things are would raise the point that if it was a 63 F1 car with 1999 Honda Civic suspension that this would really be too "vintage"... I agree... and when I can: 1. see the suspension while the car goes by me at 150mph I'd be upset but 2. understand that as the car is very old... I would much rather see them get it working again so that I can enjoy seeing it on the track and 3. as to the r/c part of this analogy... if back in the day the 63 F1 car was available but they made 27 other chassis', 16 different suspension configs of every sort, 300 body styles and 6 different sized tires... who am I to say that running other than the way the factory made it isn't vintage. To me this vintage r/c hobby is more about all the variations of the cars and that's what made them so great... that you could make it whatever you wanted.
MelvinsArmy wrote:Am I the only one who sees the irony that here we are on "RC10Talk.com" and there is no class at the Vintage Nationals that a 6010 RC10 (you know, the RC10) can be entered in and be competitive.... ....I'm talking about a vintage 6010 RC10. To race at a vintage race.
You know what would be much easier than coming to an kind of agreement on the rules for this race? Take the word Vintage out of the title. That would solve everything. Maybe call it the Retro Nationals because that's what it is.
To me the name RC10 means much more than just that one car. I believe they still used it in reference to the B4 as a matter of fact. That aside it was certainly used as the ONLY name for 5 cars (the 6010, the CE, Team, Worlds, and it's a stretch but 10T) so to me it spans much more than one car. With that said I do agree there should be a special place for the car that IMO started it all... the 6010 RC10 and it is CERTAINLY one of my considerations for the race. My feeling is that I don't believe many people have one that they would wish to race... most that we have are probably shelf queens as they should be and the runners that are there... how many of those guys would make it. Nothing would do the 6010 RC10 a greater disservice than to honor it with it's own class of 4 cars.
When I feel that enough people would come with them then I will make a place for those guys in the race. Now that I say that... perhaps the first step is opening up a place for them to be able to compete... and that will be addressed in a minute... keep reading!!!
Thank you again Mel. I NEVER EVER want you to feel like I argue with you.
kaiser wrote:when the 6010 came out what was it's competition?
i think a true vintage race would be tough to pull off. i think erich and rchr do a great job at making it fun, and thats what rc is all about right?
i didn't even make it there for the race last year but i did make it for the first day of practice and i had a blast. the week prior and the week after i ran my jrx2 with the modern cars and that was awesome too.
Thank you kind sir! It was an honor to meet you the week prior to the race as well as see you come and have some fun when you could! Hopefully this year you can make the WHOLE race!
From my memory the true competition for those cars were Cox Scorpions and most certainly the Ultima. Last year we had one Scorpion in classic and I let him run there because he stood no chance in 2wd and also because I just couldn't beat to see him possibly break his beautiful and rare car trying to get by someone in 2wd. True vintage is very hard... it would be very expensive, I think some collectors on here would have a heart attack seeing some guy tear open a NIB pack of while ball cups or burning up a set of Goodyear labeled RC10 kit tires, it would be too hard for people to actually find enough parts to support a weekend of racing and I think it would have to be tech'd and nit picked for authenticity to the point where no one would have fun because everyone would be DQ'd for incorrect screws and the like LOL. The biggest contributing factor to the problem we're discussing is exactly what you said last and what was my experiment in coming up with this race. The question "can an RC10 or JRX2 still be competitive against today's latest and greatest?" and the answer is a profound YES... at least on the club level or racing.
civilguy wrote:RCHR is in your backyard, and to have fun running a vintage, classic, retro, whatever-you-call-it buggy is easy (and cheap) for you and others in the great Waterbury area.
I think several members here are vintage enthusiasts and just pine for a more vintage feel. That vibe goes away when you're running your 27turn/nimh batteried 6010 short arm RC10 (like I did in 2008) against basically modern buggys on a track surface that didn't exist until most of our prized toys were discontinued. All of us can take our vintage rides to a local track and most local clubs will let you run right alongside B4's... why get a hotel, travel for hours and incur all those expenses when you can do the same thing in your backyard?
Personally, I'd rather see an event without "Nationals" in the name, held at a loamy, loose track with a swap meet and more focus on meeting other enthusiasts, swapping stories and getting to meet people... more of a Vintage get-together that happens to be held at a track. That's not what I recommend for Erich's event, but I think it's more of what some folks on here would like to see... and that more would travel distances to attend.
Jeff I will tell you and others that I also consider you a friend as well but I will confess to you that at times I do take what you have said personally and offensively. I try not to but it is hard at times. People think that I'm just being PC and nice but I, above all, am honest so I wanted to say that but make sure that you know I will always consider you a good friend as well. As far as 27t motors, NIMH, etc... if you or the others would direct us to a place in the world where this is still what people run I'll be more than happy to invite more of them to the race for you guys
The fact is that the hobby transitions and there will always be those that keep running 5-10 year old stuff but they should consider more appropriate equipment if they want to join with others. If IFMAR was suddenly to make a rulling that no one at a Worlds event could run Lipo because Adam Drake didn't want to buy new batteries and was showing up with 1200's there would be a lynch mob! LOL As far as putting the Nationals name on this event... Not sure if anyone else noticed but almost EVERY ONE of the 700 races in the world is a Nationals (Snowbird Nationals, Micro Nationals, Pro Series Nationals for example) yet all but 7 or 8 of them are actually sanctioned "National" events... of which not a single one of use, nor most will ever attend. Nationals is a VERY loose term not meant to designate someone the best in the nation but (and this is as far as this race is pertained) more of a "open to and attended by people from all over the nation". I can't wait to see the meltdown when this becomes the Vintage Offroad Worlds because Bormac shows up LOL. As I said to Melvin, I don't want to seem like I'm attacking you or angry, you are my friend and regardless of whether I agree with your opinions, I respect them and I respect you and I will always consider your input... a hint for you... if you want me to consider them MORE, a good way to get me to is to actually COME to the race
"Retro Nationals" instead of "Vintage"? If the car is almost 20 years old, I think that it has earned the moniker "Vintage"
I was looking forward to trying to get down there this year ... is the competition really that cut-throat? I mean, it sounded like it would be a pretty chill gig ...
AMEN AND SHALLOM! I don't know about you guys but I got into collecting "vintage r/c cars" (thank you Doug Carter for introducing me to all this) because of ALL of the cars from the 80's and 90's not just because of what I raced. To me the word "vintage" means everything old and by any means possible and I feel this is also what we are all on here for. There are always exceptions but I think its safe to assume almost all of us on here are interested in much more than just a racey rc10... we want the High Rollers and Batmobile's too and that is the true definition of "vintage r/c". The "Vintage Nats" is merely a showcase for anything vintage that you want to play with.
As I learned last year by the heavy metal rules when it came to the Clodbuster, nobody cares anyway.
I can't help but take that personally. I hope you'd agree I spent a good amount of time searching for a way you could race. Even if I didn't find one that you were happy with or that would work, the argument can certainly be made that I cared enough to dedicate my time to your issue so that you could run it. There were two or three Clods that even did run... while you say they got spanked, I'd be interested if those two or three guys feel the same way you do... that I didn't care and that they got slapped. I sure hope not on all accounts, yours included.
scr8p wrote:now i haven't been to the past two races, and unless something really changed, i don't see it as being "cut throat". don't let these threads paint a picture of what you'll encounter once you're there... ... if anything, i believe this back and forth is good because erich can better understand where guys are coming from. he can then take it all in and come up with a plan to put towards his race. at the end of the day, if i can afford it, i'll go no matter what. my biggest reason for going there is to hang out with some of the guys i interact with on this site day in and day out. being able to run some of my cars while doing it is just a bonus.
Thankyou very much Scr8p! I also agree that I wouldn't say it's cut throat at ALL! If anything the talk on here is far more that way!
I would like to take this opportunity to maybe ask everyone to consider that they've said their piece and try to make an effort to curb the negativity. It may seem like its just because it's bad for "my race" but honestly... I don't make a penny from the race so I don't really care beyond the good time that it ruins for me. The part that it will affect negatively though is peoples opinion of not only the event and the good time we ACTUALLY have but also of our segment of the hobby. When I found this board and vintage r/c at the same time I worked for RC Driver where I was forced to address topics on every forum on the internet and RC10Talk was always my sanctuary because there was no negativity, no arguing, no big heads or flaming each other or anything. It was nothing but love for collecting old cars and the occasional "O RLY" remake of Halgars avatar. I guess I'm just asking for everyone to let up and if you have any further gripes or whatever to just PM me for the sake of anyone new coming here and seeing us acting this way. As for you coming... you had better KNOW that I love seeing you there. Not only as my friend but seeing you there, to me, tells me that your feeling better and that you can enjoy your life with us... and that makes me that happiest.
Brandon G wrote:
I thought about the whole OLD SCHOOL buggy class a bit and let me throw this out there:
Throw them in the classic class. BUT make the rules more stringent, which would require a "Tech inspection" of the cars before signing up in the class.
Leave the rules alone for the non-race type 2wd buggies. Run whatever you want with the limitation of motor wind. (Frogs, Hornets, Scorpions etc.)
If you run a 4wd in classic, like the Boomerang, you MUST run stock tires and silver can motor. Thus taking the 4wd advantage away some.
Run the RC10's (6 gear and skinny front end) and Ultimas (skinny chassis and red shocks) and any other of this type buggy in stock configuration. OE tires, silver can stock Mabuchi motor, brushed ESC, and your 6 cell sub-c packs. This would get you out there running what you think would be fun to run, and equalize the playing field a bit. But like I said before, a tech inspection would have to be done to the buggies to make sure they are in compliance. Like Rick said, it is Erich's event. He is the one going to the trouble of organizing it. He should have the ultimate say in what does or doesn't go. He's been doing a bang up job so far, and I hope he keeps it up!
Brandon, your support is 2nd to none and I want you to know I greatly appreciate that. This year I'll buy that steak dinner Sunday night!
I'll PM you to discuss this. I really like the idea but I have lots of questions and by the time I'm done with this epic sized reply I may pass out for a few days... seriously can we get Guinness Book in here... I may be setting a record... boy I must really love you guys and this race, I'm getting tired here! Thank you for your kind words and your constructive input. It's a lot of work but seeing you come back every year and bringing new friends is exactly what makes it worth everything I have to endure for 9 months of the year.
MelvinsArmy wrote:I built a Sand Scorcher re-re to race last year, but didn't end up attending the race. If I come this year that will probably be the only car I bring. This fall I put a ball diff in so now I'm even more prepared. I'd totally run my Scorcher against a 6010 or original Ultima. Classics seems to be the closest thing to my idea of a true vintage class. And, in the past the most fun I've ever had was running silver can or spec-class style races.
Erich, how about it?
I'm on it Mel! And for the record I don't see why that SS can't be run. Is there something I'm missing? I agree about Classic. Honestly I wish there was a way I could transition the other classes to be more like that too. I admit that I'm not sure how to though. Classic works because for the most part their isn't a lot of options for parts... its more about what car you run and leaving it alone. RC10's can't be left alone without there being a huge segment of vintage that's not represented... at least that's what I feel. I would definitely like to figure this out though because I really do love Classic class... I may actually only run those style classes this year myself.
modded grasshopper (crp's fx10 front suspension upgrade) oil shocks all around, silver can
df01 dirt thrasher (think manta ray 4wd)
i could whip up a short arm car, but it would have a stealth.
jrx2 , 5link 2.2wheels
rc10 ce stealth
i have a frog too but i hate that car.
PHEW!!! I'm almost to the other end!!! Anyone else feel like they've given birth? LOL Kaiser the Grasshopper, DF01 (I may make some exceptions and say only Manta Ray and maybe one or two others with this one though because it spans so far into modern times), and Frog can all run and believe me, what you feel is at a deficit (spare me your Obama jokes Scr8p...
) is exactly what's at the heart of the Classic class. They're all "entry level" for lack of a better description and run hand out motors... and that's the great equalizer whether you run 4wd or 2wd in it. The "entry level class" you referred to... maybe you meant the Novice class? That is for the kids while Classic is coined as "entry level style cars" more just for description than anything.
OOOOK!!!! Well this should keep you all busy reading until you've blacked out... see you in Sept!!!