TAG/SG Coyote

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dinglem
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Re: TAG/SG Coyote

Post by dinglem »

V12 wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 7:17 am Regarding tires the TAG team used the same as CAT drivers but we were racing on gras. This was the typical tires usually which came with the CAT kit, for the rear it could depend on track but most drivers switched to the TAG rear tires at some point. These look similar to the CAT tires but had an additional row of spikes right at the middle and were a bit softer.
It currently has those very TAG tyres on it front and rear.... the ones with the extra row of central spikes. Not too many of those about it seems. I just got lucky about 12months ago and found 3 pairs new in packet.
60960531_364372274429500_845756374288695296_n.jpg
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Re: TAG/SG Coyote

Post by V12 »

Great find. I think It´s difficult finding such TAG tires today.
I used to meet Umberto and Marco that time, especially at the International race at Pörtschach, Austria each year. This was a great race in any aspect with drivers attending from all over the world. Mike Reedy was there, he really liked that race. Also Masami and I think Cliff Lett.

I didn´t have that much contact with Umberto, more with Marco. And not to forget my friend Pete Stevens (RIP) who helped me speeding up my Kyosho Optima at the 1986 Euros and making the A-Main at the International. Yes 1986 was the year of Optima, also Umberto and Marco run these cars.
I think the motor builder for the Mustang motors was at Pörtschach also but I never was in contact with him. We were interested in those motors but it was more or less a secret to the Italian team with no information available.

But Umberto and Marco were not only working for or with TAG, they also had a large distribution company in Italy and maybe still own. So they had all the great and expensive stuff available. But the owner of TAG is/was Mr. Spongia, metal parts were made at Berganzoni. Regarding development of the TAG car I don´t know that much but asked my friend. With the TAG Pro10 I got one of the first prototype cars with the golden aluminium side plats, which was thin and a bit too soft were the Italian guys were running thicker silver plates most times. This car was understeering like a dog, with the very rare prototype oneway and universals it was much better.
Actually punch was very good with the TAG but I never was happy with the soft chassis and the battery placement. I made my own fiberglass chassis with saddlepacks but the car was too heavy in the end. The tires were great but the car didn´t work for me the same as the CAT or Yokomo.

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Re: TAG/SG Coyote

Post by dinglem »

Very cool info. I have researched the '86 and '87 Euro's quite a bit, as these were the events the Coyote and the Mustang motors really hit the headlines, before pretty much vanishing again. I certainly think they were much bigger over in Europe than in the UK anyway.

1986
1986 European Champs A Final.jpg
1987
87 euro.jpg

I only ever saw the Coyote in magazine adverts (imported by Phil Greeno Models) and always thought it looked cool, especially as they were pushing the fact it had also won the Italian Championships. In the race reviews for the Euro's etc... it always looked like a proper car, being metal and having alloy rims etc... to my young teenage eyes it looked very business-like compared to the plastic Tamiya cars I had been used to seeing elsewhere. I have always wanted one.
November 85.jpg

The Mustang motors were always a bit of a mystery and it took me a fair while to eventually hunt one down, and thankfully it is in great shape. The only picture I have ever seen of one was in a heavily modified Coyote shown at the '88 Euro's. It has the motor canted over to the side, upright shocks and those same TAG tyres. It is clearly a Mustang label just like mine, and there is also a Mustang label on the chassis. I have also seen a review in an Italian magazine which is a write up on the Coyote by none other than Umberto Milanesi himself, and not surprisingly that car has Mustang stickers on the shell.

tag euro rear tyre 88.jpg
tag euro rear tyre 88.jpg (55.43 KiB) Viewed 2638 times
tag euro rear tyre 88.jpg
tag euro rear tyre 88.jpg (55.43 KiB) Viewed 2638 times
thumbnail_IMG_5685.jpg

I chat to Umberto regularly, and have also contacted Daniele Spongia as well. Finding out info on the TAG team and Mustang is very very tough. The main write ups are from the Euro's, and i have several reports from '86 and '87. I know Milanesi raced too as you say, and was actually running a Coyote himself at the '87 Worlds in Romsey.... Umberto and Marco literally just missed out on making the A Final with theirs too i believe, qualifying 11th and 12th? Had they made it into the A i think the car would have gained a bit more recognition. Umberto had his car trodden on by a marshall (he said it was Dennis Blandin!) in his last heat so he had to switch to a standard basic Coyote at the last minute for the final.

I have heard about the understeer, which is why i am chasing the one-way conversion before i run the car. It has been a bit of a journey building this, lots of hunting online and reading around the subject, but it has been great fun so far and i now have the car I always wanted as a kid. Getting to actually race it, especially with a Mustang motor, will be a nice way to round the project off.
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Re: TAG/SG Coyote

Post by dinglem »

Here's a good example of the development I mentioned previously. Both pictures from '87, and I believe this to actually be the same car. The shell in both pictures (to the right in the second shot has the same paint and decals (note the edges of the TAG logo peeping in front of the windscreen in the second), as well as at the front of the roof for example. Antennae position is also the same, and it is the same wing again with the TAG logo in the same spot. Same black front Polaris alloys. The car is clearly still being called 'Coyote' based on the shell decals and the mag write up.

Both cars exhibit the rear toe-in mod (which also used the front steering carriers on the rear) - a common upgrade by Coyote racers back in the day, and one which carried over onto the Pro10.

The latter now has the prototype stronger white wishbones and the car also has the more upright front shocks, yet clearly pre-date the Pro10 name.
87 Coyote A.jpg
87 Coyote B.jpg
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Re: TAG/SG Coyote

Post by V12 »

Regarding the 1986 Euros I think the magazine is wrong on Dennis Blandin motor. Dennis was a driver for the French Kyosho/Drastic team and he hardly could have used a Mustang motor therefore. The Drastic team used their own motors which were a mystery also, but from what I remember the motors were based on Kyosho Le Mans cans.

In Italy all companies were connected in any way.
Winning the Italian Championships maybe was with a prototype not a production car. It depends on the year. But I don´t think the team cars were any close to production cars. Speaking with my friend who sold TAG cars at that timeframe, he got a team car lend for the Nationals weekend. This car was much faster than the production car. Also he confirmed we were using TAG tires front and rear. The additional row of spikes improved traction and steering, and the compound was somewhat better than the Schumacher tires.

It is hard to tell if the Coyote or Pro10 could have done better with selling kits. But for sure the Optima and CAT were the cars to beat in 1986 and 1987, if you knew what mods needed to be done.

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Re: TAG/SG Coyote

Post by dinglem »

You could well be correct regarding the Mustang motor - I am just going on the article I have here. I believe Umberto Pernice nailed FTD in the last heat using a Mustang however.

I would imagine the cars were certainly factory specials rather than standard off-the-shelf cars. I actually have a picture of the Coyote (actually looks like a Pro10) Umberto ended up racing with, as there is a shop in Italy who have helped me out with spares (Umberto put me in contact with them) and Umberto also confirmed that they have his actual race car there. They sent me pictures of it.

I imagine being shaft driven was a significant sales disadvantage by the time the CAT's, Pb's and Optima were coming through - especially the belt driven Optima and the rise of the Mid. It is a similar story to the Pro Radiant, which had massive potential and did well in the right hands, but didn't sell at the time as chain drive was considered out-of-date compared to belt drive.
These are two quirky cars I now champion, just to be a little different and to try to make something out of. I have no idea how they will go, but I am going to find out :D
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Re: TAG/SG Coyote

Post by aircooled »

dinglem wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 11:36 pm . I actually have a picture of the Coyote (actually looks like a Pro10) Umberto ended up racing with, as there is a shop in Italy who have helped me out with spares (Umberto put me in contact with them) and Umberto also confirmed that they have his actual race car there. They sent me pictures of it.
Would you mind sharing those pictures? I've got an Pro10 recently and need some inspiration for the body art :)

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Re: TAG/SG Coyote

Post by dinglem »

I actually posted a shot of it earlier in this thread.... it has no body shell unfortunately. I think he sent me a few pictures all fairly similar and that was the best one.

Not many Pro-10's around. The guy in the same shop has a LOAD of spares, Pro-10 included.
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Re: TAG/SG Coyote

Post by aircooled »

Thanks for the reply, I’m looking for a new shell and there are no repros available I guess.
Wiuld love to see what they used at the Worlds, to do a replica

BTW, nice work on your Coyote!

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Re: TAG/SG Coyote

Post by dinglem »

Hi - glad you like the Coyote so far. It is a work-in-progress but we are really getting somewhere with it now.

The best pictures I have of the cars you mention came to light very recently in fact. The shell is missing but you can see from the wing it is white with Italian colours and some Coke detailing. I believe the rims to be 3 hole Polaris alloys, used with the team one-ways. I assume your Pro10 came with those?
SG-Coyote-4WD-04.jpg
53552052_2166062653473690_1736505026378989568_n.jpg
There is also a very grainy picture of the 2nd place qualifying car of Umberto Pernice from the '87 Euro's... the car in the middle of the shot with the white wishbones.
30712939_10157320616136258_4547601047626973184_n.jpg
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Re: TAG/SG Coyote

Post by GoMachV »

aircooled wrote: Thanks for the reply, I’m looking for a new shell and there are no repros available I guess.
TBG on eBay has the Coyote, I am the one that donated it (the one shown in their pic was my personal body)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/150858289723
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Re: TAG/SG Coyote

Post by aircooled »

This is what I have... not even sure whether it is the stock body. But at least there is the original chassis and the correct wheels ;)
No one ways though :(
BC8179CA-8888-425B-92ED-43953C87219E.jpeg
CB5410A7-983D-4924-8397-1C466E11A053.jpeg
B08A763C-8557-4375-9B46-8F3DC4F3FC59.jpeg

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Re: TAG/SG Coyote

Post by dinglem »

Do you only have one gold wheel????? Or a full set?

Rest looks very complete.

Here is a Pro10 advert with the original shell for your reference.
28575953_10154975914156307_4433204636533146946_n.jpg
CAT SWB&XL, Meteor (x3), RC10 custom, RC10 Graphite, Goldpan, 870c (x2), Works 91, Samurai, Pro Radiant (x2), Mini Mustang&Maxima, Mid Turbo, TOP Hybrid , Coyote, Hot Trick Optima, Supercharge, Brimod, 'Rory Cull' Hotshot, SRB.

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Re: TAG/SG Coyote

Post by dinglem »

aircooled - looking at your lower chassis plate it appears to have been cut to match the Coyote body shape. I have a brand new unpainted and un-cut kit Coyote shell if you want to stick with original rather than reproduction. The originals are very very thick and durable.

The team ran Coyote shells throughout the period when the Coyote was developed into what later became the Pro-10.
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Re: TAG/SG Coyote

Post by aircooled »

dinglem wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 11:24 pm Do you only have one gold wheel????? Or a full set?

Rest looks very complete.
Don't worry, I have the full set :)

And yes, from what I can tell, it seems complete, only the battery mounts are missing. Would love to source at least one, to make it available for 3D printing.

And thanks for the kind offer, but since I suck at painting, I'd never ruin a good original and stick to the repros ;)

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