Lonestar's RC10 OIN - turned B1M Racing chronicles (Race #3 on P.7)

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Re: Lonestar's RC10 OIN Racing chronicles

Post by RC10th »

I dunno, my OIN RC10 (MM) would dig in deep and out accelerate all modern buggies. I also feel the slightly narrower track helped it in low grip conditions, but the less than ideal geometry hindered it in other areas.

I feel like Scr8p said, if a hand full of hot shoes got together and collaborated they could develop a car that would be every bit as fast as at least B5M cars.
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Re: Lonestar's RC10 OIN Racing chronicles

Post by scr8p »

In the pic with the kids, I'm kinda surprised to see them all using wheel radios. Normally, when I see pics of races in Europe everyone is using a stick radio. Although, I look at pics of old races a lot more than recent ones. :wink:

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Re: Lonestar's RC10 OIN Racing chronicles

Post by Lonestar »

scr8p wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:36 pm In the pic with the kids, I'm kinda surprised to see them all using wheel radios. Normally, when I see pics of races in Europe everyone is using a stick radio. Although, I look at pics of old races a lot more than recent ones. :wink:
I think in Mainland Europe 90% of folks use wheel radios... and 90% of those who use stick radios do so because they started in the 80's. The rest (ie 1% of the total) are just bizzarre :mrgreen: but usually they are fast! not because of the radios, but because sticking to sticks (pun intended) these days takes serious determination. And determination makes you fast.

In UK, there are more stick radio users I believe... But Brits are just bizzarre :mrgreen:

Back to race reporting now.

First qualifier, I popped a ballcup. Marshall cut put it back on. Second and third qualifier was ok but everyone was getting faster as they were learning the track - I wasn't. In the end I dropped a full 8 spots and started as 1st of the D :shock:

I don't think there is a single run where I hadn't rebuilt my shocks and tried something different. I must have downed two full bottle of oil and the hydraulics were still crap , I think I had some 55WT at the rear :lol: between the second and third heat I had no other choice than change pistons, I needed more pack without having the suspension stiff as a board - so off to smaller hole pistons... I pulled out the parts box, and found out I had left the "shocks spares" bag on the workbench. I only had 1 pair of #3's in the wrong spares bag... I mounted them on the rear with 35WT oil, and this was already MUCH better - less static damping, but more pack. I left the fronts with #2's and something like 50WT.

I've also added a significant amount of lead up front, behind and in front of the shock tower, as grip was coming up and my car was pushing wider and wider. This also helped the car be a bit more lively in the slow sections, but not by that much.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that I'm running a front LWB car, but a "normal" RPM steering set.
IMG_20171104_214143722.jpg
This configuration gives a stupid ackermann (sorry, no pic) with VERY different L/R angles... which make for an easy-driving car on the one hand, BUT as the inside wheel throw is maxxed, the outside doesn't have much at all. This doesn't help with getting corner speed, really :roll: This is due to the bellcrank design, as the outside bellcrank gets pushed more, the bellcrank steering link ballstud actually pretty much stays at a constant distance vs. the spindle ballstud => the outside wheel doesn't turn anymore (or barely) even though you keep dialing in more lock from the radio. :?
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Re: Lonestar's RC10 OIN Racing chronicles

Post by Lonestar »

(c'ed)

The solution for this is to install an A&L-like steering system - the "connecting bar" will help alleviate this issue, by bringing the putside steering link closer to the front end once at full lock, hence dialing in more wheel lock (more on this later).

Also, note that all modern cars have their steering pivots at the front of the car - the bellcranks are oriented the same way as the spindles. This is a much better design...

My mains were rather unsexy: The lower mains usually are eventful (many crashes and driver mistakes) while being uninteresting at the same time (no proper "racing") I got punted a few times too many while in the lead, then did a few mistakes too many myself. The difference in racing lines between an understeery vintage RM compared to point-and-shoot modern MM cars is stupid obvious - If I want to hit apexes, this means slowing down a lot before AND running a wide radius. MM cars would just scrub speed, and dive inside. No hope :lol:

I finished 29th over a field of 44 racers - not incl. the Juniors, some of them were faster than me actually :mrgreen:

Lap-times wise, at the end of the day I was running best laps in the 15.2's and 15.4's - the top of the A (national caliber guys) were a full second faster, bottom of the A (where I'd usually end up at) would be 0.7s faster, so that latter number is the "true" gap for that day.

(for the record, my son broke ALL FOUR EARS of his steering servo, then he tore off one of the rear hinges off the rear blocks, etc... I spent the day fixing his car in between wrenching sessions on mine. He ended up dead last :!: but he said he had a lot of fun and wants to come back, so I'll take him back next time! :) )

Overall, I had an absolute ball on raceday - first, I think my car got more attention than the top drivers' :lol: Many people came to have a look at it in the pits, touch it, marvel at it, or tell stories about their dads or themselves running one or knowing someone that ran one bitd. Second, I had very low expectations, so I was really there to play with little toy cars as opposed to chasing a performance: this made it for a very relaxed, fun day in the end, with some focused R&D (suspension) and zero breakage whatsoever: this thing is unbreakable. Third, frankly, this was THE MOST beautiful car on the track that day. It looks like a dune racer, it's low, it's got the cabin in the back, it's got white plastics (mostly), it looks like a friggin' racecar when the others look like ugly cab-forward UFO's, and it's got that magic titanium transmission plug :lol:


I'm not quite done with this car yet...

First, I want to install an A&L-like (or TRX-1-like) steering on this car. I'll either pillage the steering from my Stealth CE here (thanks Georges for the pic http://www.overrc.com/vintage/autos/assorc10ce/assorc10ce.html )

Image

I thought about buying one from Jeff, but this car only has a couple more races to do ... either taking that one rom my gold pan, or doing myself a cwf bar and bolting it on the stock bellcranks.

Second, I want to try Big Bores... Again, don't want to buy, so I will take them off my Blue-is-Better TRX1 to try.

Third, I've bought a MM conversion kit from Brian/Mark... I know, I know, by now I've spent pretty much as much as I would have paid for a B6 kit in the first place. But frankly I love the engineering behind it, and I also want to feel by myself how different a MM car drives from a RM car that shares the same platform 8)

So stay tuned for more experiments for the mid-Jan race, with a few more pictures too next time!

Paul

PS1: @GoMachV I might hit you up with a CWF bar request :)
PS2: Patriiick, merde, tu me l'envoies c'teu carro, ou bien? :mrgreen:
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Re: Lonestar's RC10 OIN Racing chronicles

Post by jwscab »

Your steering definitely whacked. If you run long wheelbase, you still need to place the steering bellcranks in the short position otherwise yeah you are all over the place. The nose is held in place with three shorty screws.

Get those shock towers fixed, fix the steering and reset your shock setup to B4 carpet.

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Re: Lonestar's RC10 OIN Racing chronicles

Post by Lonestar »

jwscab wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:48 pm Your steering definitely whacked. If you run long wheelbase, you still need to place the steering bellcranks in the short position otherwise yeah you are all over the place. The nose is held in place with three shorty screws.

Get those shock towers fixed, fix the steering and reset your shock setup to B4 carpet.
Joe, roger that about the steering mount. The thing is, even a worlds car has some pretty crazy ackerman already - the outside mounting point on the bellcrank is too far back when some steering is dialed in. What it's missing is a "floating bar" connecting the bellcranks, again like an A&L setup or a TRX-1 :idea:

I will try other towers, too. I'm struggling to see how just taking B4 shocks setups as-is (are?) on normal RC10 team/worlds towers on that OIN can be work given that everything is different... the spacing between the arms, the lower shock mounts, etc. All dimensions are different. Still a lot of playing around with shocks needed ;)
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Re: Lonestar's RC10 OIN Racing chronicles

Post by jwscab »

yes, it has ackermann built in by design. I agree that maybe it might be more than needed, but its something to adjust back to 'stock' and then tune. as is, it's way off. bumpsteer is probably the more critical parameter here.

the oin suspension is closer to B4 than team car, so you are closer starting with the b4 settings. longer arms, longer links, camber gain, it's all closer to b4. the other thing, if you take 5 fast guys and look at their shock setups you are going to probably get 4 variations, so you gotta start somewhere.

I've been right on top of this because I have my woin at the point where I need a shock setup. based on what Jason is doing, a bunch of clay b4 and team car setups, including the b4 manual, I'm setting up my shocks initially as:

Front:#2 piston 35 weight oil
Rear #1 piston 30 or 32.5 weight oil-going see how it feels on the bench.
Silver springs to start

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Re: Lonestar's RC10 OIN Racing chronicles

Post by Lonestar »

Then let's keep in touch via this very forum - I will share how things develop. As you probably perceived, I'm a bit anal-retentive when it comes to shock and diff setup :mrgreen:
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Re: Lonestar's RC10 OIN Racing chronicles

Post by jwscab »

yep agreed, hopefully Jason and I can get some feedback in the next couple months. Agreed this stuff has to be top notch to be consistent.

bear in mind I am a terrible driver. More mechanic and tuning guy.

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Re: Lonestar's RC10 OIN Racing chronicles

Post by Asso_man! »

Hey Paul looks like you had a lot of fun with your boy and made the RC10 proud and known to younger generations! These are already big achievements in my book!
I bet you popped one of the camber link ball cups? You should try to fix that too, it keeps on bugging me :lol:
What I would do:
- bring your car back to short wheel base
- solve that camber link issue by limiting the steering on the radio. I always found it had too much steering travel and if you bring it back and to SWB, you’ll have anyhow more steering.
- use a wider front shock tower that allows your shocks to stand a tad more vertical
- use a buggy rear shock tower or drill similar holes in your truck one and cut the unnecessary ears. You want the rear shocks to be more at an angle, especially on hard surface/carpet.
- use blue springs front and silver in the rear
- limit the shock travel inside the shocks (at least by 5mm)
- shocks: I would start with #2 piston front and 35 oil, #2 rear with 35 oil
- you should also try to add weight below your battery if you’re using lipos, it will help stabilise the chassis.
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Re: Lonestar's RC10 OIN Racing chronicles

Post by works92 »

Hi lonestar,
I see you're OIN running at this race and it looked good and pretty fun to ride (make me remind my 22-4 on carpet, very pleasant to drive but a nightmare for the "chrono" :mrgreen: )

I doubt it can one day be really fast on an a real high grip track;
but the SIORC tracks should fit him very well, the carpet is one of the less sticky I know and there's always slippy zones ( linoleum ...)
so the ball diff is a good advantage and rear motor should not be a big handicap when you have found the right chassis balance and the right damping setup
A guy from my club use to race a 22 RM on carpet with good result.

Really interesting, I will follow your OIN adventures this winter.

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Re: Lonestar's RC10 OIN Racing chronicles

Post by Lonestar »

Asso_man! wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:18 pm Hey Paul looks like you had a lot of fun with your boy and made the RC10 proud and known to younger generations! These are already big achievements in my book!
I bet you popped one of the camber link ball cups? You should try to fix that too, it keeps on bugging me :lol:
What I would do:
- bring your car back to short wheel base
- solve that camber link issue by limiting the steering on the radio. I always found it had too much steering travel and if you bring it back and to SWB, you’ll have anyhow more steering.
- use a wider front shock tower that allows your shocks to stand a tad more vertical
- use a buggy rear shock tower or drill similar holes in your truck one and cut the unnecessary ears. You want the rear shocks to be more at an angle, especially on hard surface/carpet.
- use blue springs front and silver in the rear
- limit the shock travel inside the shocks (at least by 5mm)
- shocks: I would start with #2 piston front and 35 oil, #2 rear with 35 oil
- you should also try to add weight below your battery if you’re using lipos, it will help stabilise the chassis.
Cheers for the input, Master ;)

I will leave the car LWB for now as I'll be swtching it to a MM setup using Mr. Conklin's finest 3D-printed wizardry :) I'll move the steering up front, though.

I had started the day on Rsilvers/Fblues, I ended up on Rsilvers/Fgreens in the hope to have a bit more front end. #2's might work again as weight is moved up front and the car's weight distribution is more "balanced" than a RR.

I will also try other towers as you guys mentionned!

Works92: PM sent :)

Cheers folks, saturday is touring car raceday, I'll work on the RC10 next week, but here's a pic of the car with some of its siblings to keep my faithful readers waiting :)
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Re: Lonestar's RC10 OIN Racing chronicles

Post by Lonestar »

woopsie, forgot to post that pic I had for you kind readers:
IMG_20171211_092353787.jpg
Anyways, back to the workbench now I have a few weeks between two races.

Working on the front end first. This is what it looks like now - you can see some lead there :)
IMG_20171218_213252293.jpg
And once you remove that body extension (which is bloody smart btw!) there is even more :lol:
IMG_20171218_213801419.jpg
How about going extra-LWB :D
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Re: Lonestar's RC10 OIN Racing chronicles

Post by Lonestar »

woopsie, forgot to post that pic I had for you kind readers:
IMG_20171211_092353787.jpg
Anyways, back to the workbench now I have a few weeks between two races.

Working on the front end first. This is what it looks like now - you can see some lead there :)
IMG_20171218_213252293.jpg
And once you remove that body extension (which is bloody smart btw!) there is even more :lol:
IMG_20171218_213801419.jpg
How about going extra-LWB :D
IMG_20171218_214859971.jpg
My scale tops off at 100g... so that 102g here :shock: Still pushing like crazy :lol:
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Re: Lonestar's RC10 OIN Racing chronicles

Post by Lonestar »

Right... no spare used RPM-style front shock tower to replace the 10T front tower, so I had to partly strip down a car I've had in the pipeline for a while...

bring on the new-built CC :shock:
IMG_20171218_220438944.jpg
cute, eh? Even if not perfect... still needs some work, but eminently desirable already!
IMG_20171218_220444763.jpg
IMG_20171218_220520806.jpg
IMG_20171218_220527075.jpg
here's what we need:
IMG_20171218_220639290.jpg
Note that Joe did this part for me a looooong while back - and I had never attached it :roll:
IMG_20171218_220815448.jpg
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