Super Astute rere

[RCveteran]

Makes sense so you are saying classic 2wd excludes RC10 stealth and JRX2 only? My point is a Triumph or Super Astute is not a slouch of a car. Are we essentially creating a 2wd silver can for anything but RC10 stealth and JRX. What about an Ultima Pro Xl? Get screwy and a lot of theory as to is one really better than the other.

I still say with silver can I'd put a Triumph or Dyna Storm or Super Astute against a JRX or RC10 stealth.

Still begs the question where something like a Turbo Optima Mid SE, Top Force or Egress goes, not a plastic tub but clearly not a Yokomo 94 for 4wd.

[stickboy007]

My proposal would be to have a silver can 2wd class for cars excluding the RC10 stealth (AE), XX (Losi), Pro-X (Kyosho), TRX-3 (Traxxas), and Cougar 2000 (Schumacher). Chassis from these manufacturers which precede those generations may still be competitive in standard 2wd in the right hands, but really they belong to a different era.

The Turbo Optima Mid SE, Top Force, and Egress, all classify for Classic 4wd under the current rules. Even the '94 YZ10 technically falls into that class (all pre-'95 cars). The way I do it for my own cars is to run stuff that's more rare, or more fragile, or less capable, in a more power-limited class. So my '93 Works YZ10 is what I ran in Classic 4wd last year. It's a tank (very strong), but not quite as easy to drive quickly as my CAT 2000. Both of them are "classic" 4wd cars, but I put my CAT in the standard 4wd class where I think it is more appropriate and I want to do my part to maintain the "spirit" of Classic 4wd. Even though it is more fragile, it is very fast and so I'd rather put it there and leave Classic 4wd for some of the older, less capable stuff like a Lazer, Optima, 870C, and so forth. If I end up running my '94 YZ10 again, I would put it into standard 4wd, as it is as quick as the CAT and several generations removed from the 870C. Again, that would leave room for cars like the Egress or 870C to actually have fun racing without moving over every other lap for a CAT or YZ10 or XX4. Erich had set the rules up to have a year cutoff there (1995), but really it's more like a valve. You can run classic stuff in the standard class, but not the other way. Having something similar for 2wd would be great. So yes, a Triumph or Dyna Storm *could* do well in standard 2wd, but they're so much more fragile than a RC10 that it's better to put them in a silver can class.

[RCveteran]

Thank you for the clarification and that makes sense, it's a bit of fragility concept mixed in.

So then, care to pen the specific rules then for the silver can 2wd ? I think I would miss some key detail given you have raced at Vonats. Then we propose them.

I can try:

2wd Silver Can Class
All two wheel drive vehicles buggies with chassis configuration per manual (IE no mid engine conversion or drastic modifications, mods to allow modern tires and Lipo will be allowed). Cars excluded that must run in regular 2wd class are RC10 stealth (AE), XX (Losi), Pro-X (Kyosho), TRX-3 (Traxxas), and Cougar 2000 (Schumacher).
Handout Tamiya Silver Can
Radio/Battery/ESC (no boost) open
Tires Open
Example of cars (Astute, Triumph, Dyna Storm, Classic Ultima)

4wd silver can.
All four wheel drive vehicles buggies with chassis configuration per manual (no drastic modifications, mods to allow modern tires and Lipo will be allowed). Cars excluded will be.....
Handout Tamiya Silver Can
Radio/Battery/ESC (no boost) open
Tires Open
Example of cars (Top force, Avante, Egress, Optima)

[stickboy007]

We already have a Classic 4wd class which includes the exact cars you listed, so adding yet another 4wd class with silver can only would not be realistic given the current program schedule. I would focus solely on a Classic 2wd class here, with a few edits:

1.) Expand the example list to also include the JRx and 6-gear RC10 (at least that way, it's explicitly stated).

2.) I think there will be some debate about modifications. Personally, I don't have a strong opinion about keeping the cars stock. If you have a Super Astute and want to put Hi Cap dampers on it, technically, that's a mod not contained within the original manual. If you have an Astute and find a way to convert it to mid-motor, I think that's f**king awesome and there's no reason not to run it if you want to. The trick here with mods is that they are within the "spirit" of vintage. That's admittedly a gray area, but it has been the running theme for mods at VONATS, at least from what I understand. Since silver can is so power-limited, I can see people having lots of fun trying to reduce weight and drivetrain loss to get more speed. If you can cut the gears on your Super Astute, then that's pretty trick in my book, and it's not like doing that requires tools not available in the '80's and '90's. Even something like the AE 6-gear transmission required a lot of "special care" to get it to run smoothly, as a per-manual build on that gearbox would result in junk. That period of time was also very fruitful in terms of aftermarket hop-ups for those cars anyway. Of course, ultimately, it would be up to Erich to decide which mods are acceptable and which aren't.

3.) Might be better to have a handout Sport Tuned motor than a silver can, but either way I guess it should be fine.

In terms of schedule, I think it's probably best to run this class on the first day (same day as Heavy Metal, Classic, Wheelie, and presumably Classic 4wd based on what I heard from Erich for going forward). That day has more of the "fun" classes, while the second day has the standard 2wd, 4wd, and stadium truck classes which are more populated and more competitive. Again, though, that would be up to Erich, assuming such a class could even get going in the first place.

[RCveteran]

I think for 4wd I was attempting to create a slower car friendly class by throwing a silver can (sport tuned fine) in instead of 13.5 brushless. Hell a handout 27t brushed even. I see your point though a Top Force or Avante fits in 4wd classic it just has to run a 13.5 brushless which I tend to think is a bit much for those drive trains versus say a belt drive YZ or Lazer. Or you allow the class that was the Manta Ray, Dirt Thrasher to allow FRP based chassis like Top Force in but ban specific race models like XX4 etc. Some gray overlap but we could work on the spirit arrangement.

But I also understand for scheduling we can't have it all. So I will just have to enter my 13.5T Top Force and dominate

As to mods, I can give, when I say chassis configuration original I don't think I meant no shock changes etc. To me, if I take an old RC10 graphite or JRX, build a custom lay down mid engine stealth on it, to your point, it is way cool, but it is not an RC10 as intended for vintage in my mind in a silver can class at least. it should be in the 2wd racer class with 17.5T. In the silver can I want to see them and vast majority as they were back in the day. Yes I am aware of the custom one off mid engine and others of the day but those were the rare exception and not typical at club level outings.

SCR8P, anyway you can take all this info and move it to Vonats thread, it is good info as the year goes on and classes are decided. Hate for it to get lost here. I take credit for derailing the super astute thread to this.

[foampervert]

Hiya friends,

This is prolly the wrong place to discuss vintage racing, but i do see the connection since it is about the re-re super astute.

Truthfully, there is NO fair or unfair-ness in a vintage race... If you were to arbitrarily decide that certain cars Must be excluded due to them being too well designed for their time, then surely, you're racing vintage for all the wrong reasons... It seems that the fairness issue only becomes relevant in the face of racers who are determined to win yet another plastic trophy or printed card. Why not just race, simply to enjoy running your cars in a racing environment?

The only rule ought to be: run your vintages, just moderate your speeds so that everyone goes home with an intact car... This is to ensure that there is a race number 2! else if people keep breaking their cars, no one will race again. So a limited motor rule might work, but it's more important for racers to understand that it's not a race, it's a vintage get-together, in a race format...

Alexander

p.s. let's talk about the super astute instead... check out how many bearings you need! good gawd!

[RCveteran]

Back to Super Astute, slight reaming, AE B4 spur slips right on, uses stock SA slipper plates and hardware just fine with AE slipper pads that match spur. Now you have standard pitch to match rest of your pinions.