2010 -- VONATs -- Class Entry Discussion

[Brandon G]

I for one like to be able to use the new rubber and BL systems. The rubber makes the cars driveable. Stock Hornet tires on hard packed clay is a lesson in futility. Put some grip under it and it is now a fun car to drive. Lipo just makes it easier. No multiple packs, cycling, etc. BL is just easy too. No comms to cut or overheating motors. Not saying brushed motors aren't competitive, just more labor intensive. I ran brushed motors on 2 of the 3 vehicles I ran, and the BL setup I had in my RC10 I had not a worry with the whole weekend. The brushed motor in my Supershot, well, that's a whole other story. The Frog did just fine with a brushed motor.

I say if there is enough interest in putting an "all old" class together, then do it.

I think that there needs to be a definitive list of all the popular vehicles and where they fit in as far as classes goes. I would put that responsibility in Erich's hands though. I don't think the guys who run RCHR are worried about that as much as putting on a good show (which they do, and do well). At least we would have a benchmark.

The Kyosho Tracker is a grey area vehicle. It is essentially an Ultima converted to a MT. So wouldn't that fall into the same category as the RC10 MT conversion? Not trying to steal any thunder Freddie... But then again, the Tamiya King Cab is a grey area vehicle in my mind too. Maybe we need an intermediate truck class for these rides? I don't know.

[MelvinsArmy]

there is one thing that i realy want to see for 2010 vonats and thats every car get tech. and the classics and heavy metal classes be stock no mods. ( this is not a dig at you freddy i thought that thing was way cool) but just run them the way they were back in the day, and i dont mean batt. radios and esc i mean shocks tire cutting them in half lol sorry freddy i had to, but just leave the mods. to truck, buggy and 4wd. i think it will put on a better show

I don't agree with this. It sounds like you want a spec class. I don't remember hearing about spec classes until somewhere around 92-93. I'm not against a spec class, but leave it as it's own class, don't force those rules on the other classes. I think the pure stock class that scr8p is bringing up would be great. Rarely did I ever see a bone stock car in any class at my track, or in RCCA race coverage. I think it's a good idea to keep the modifications era-correct though. With the exception of tires and electronics. One of the most fun things about radio controlled cars is modifying them to run faster or look better. A heavy metal class with no modifications? Monster trucks are by definition modified vehicles.

This is all just my opinion. I don't go to the vintage nationals in hopes of dominating the A-main and taking home the bragging rights or whatever else comes with it. I could care less about that. I go because it's fun to race old r/c cars. My only goal is to make it till the end of the weekend in one piece. If I advance a spot or three, then that's exciting too. If I fall back two spots, I don't start having a bad time. There is always going to be someone faster or more lucky.

[budhatrain]

I think it would be good to clear up some issues. But remember balance and the spirit and purpose of the race weekend- if that was never clear, maybe now is the time to do that.

I know that I am completely new to all of this, and coming from clodtalk.com I noticed the heavy metal class and saw a clod run this past race. I thought to myself, well I could do at least that, pulled out my first r/c, a rc10t, and said and maybe do this too. Now I want to potentially go to VONATS next year.

But clods are still full out racers with good aftermarket support. Zilla 2 chassis came out around '90-91, Zilla 3 came out around '94 and Zilla 4 in '95. Are all these acceptable? Would racing a Ripper Pro or Terminator chassis be acceptable- probably not. Without taking from the spirit of the class and it's intention there needs to be a good balance with guidelines and no guidlines, like melvinsarmy said.

Plus who do you want to compete and join the vintage nationals- personally I represent a large portion of R/Cers- may have always backyard bashed but never raced- and would like to now, given a good atmosphere, where competition is present and active but not arrogant and demeaning, you don't have to own the best and newest stuff to compete- which is what has drawn me to want to be at VONATS next year.

Can a car running lipos and brushless be easily beat by MiMh and brushed motors- probably and vise versa. Can a CPE Terminator Clod easily thrash a bone stock clod- without question and no vice versa.

For the sanity of those in leadership and not having to deal with extra drama during race weekend- gotta come up with something! Natural product of running something cool and fun is more people coming and the issues they bring. Just write it down so there is a starting point and protection of 80% of people's questions.

[MelvinsArmy]

But clods are still full out racers with good aftermarket support. Zilla 2 chassis came out around '90-91, Zilla 3 came out around '94 and Zilla 4 in '95. Are all these acceptable? Would racing a Ripper Pro or Terminator chassis be acceptable- probably not. Without taking from the spirit of the class and it's intention there needs to be a good balance with guidelines and no guidlines, like melvinsarmy said.

I've got my Zilla 3 on the way. I'm sure the King Cabs will have an advantage, but you're right, a race Clod is a serious contender in MT. If you've ever seen an organized Clodbuster race or owned one, you know what I mean. Last year I wanted to bring my Boyer Clod to race, but since it was a post-94 frame it wouldn't be right. Zilla 4's are past the 94 cut off date, so I don't think they would be acceptable.

If I were making the rules for the vnats, they would be something like this: Vehicles and aftermarket parts on them must have been introduced to the market no later than 1994. With the exception of electronics, batteries, bodies (although I think the body should look like it's from the era) and tires. Things like threaded shocks I see as a grey area. While they are not era-correct and imho look out of place on a vintage car, they aren't going to be the kind of thing that gives a racer an unfair advantage. If you want to run threaded shocks on your "vintage" car, fine.

The only real bummer (if I can call it a bummer, cause it's really not) is the 1994 cut off date. This basically makes this not a vintage race, but rather a 1994 race taking place in 2009 or 2010. The advances in cars between 1979 and 1994 are huge compared to the advances that happened between 94 and today. Those are two 15 year spans, the middle of which is our cut off date. The technology in 94 is not that far outdated from what we have today. People can still be somewhat competitive with a Stealth RC10 or XX today. Nobody was going to win anything with a Super Champ or even a 6 gear in 94. Look at the buggy and ST classes. Nearly all Stealth equipped RC10's, a few Jrx's and a couple XX's in the buggy class. Hats off to the guy who ran the Rad2 (civilguy Jeff I believe). In ST class it's nearly all RC10T's, a couple JrxT's and a couple LXT's. I don't remember seeing any converted RC10 stadium trucks. They of course wouldn't be competitive with a 10T or LXT. Just as a 6 gear wouldn't be competitive with a XX. Having said all that, I don't think there is a realistic solution to make it a more realistic vintage race. Not until there are a lot more entries and they could break things up further. The only other thing I could think of would be if each year they picked a vintage year for the big classes, like say we're going to run a pre-1987 only buggy class. That is, no Losis, no Stealths, etc. RC10's vs Ultimas vs Foxes, that would be an interesting race. Probably not going to happen, but until it does I think we've got a lot more 1994 racing ahead of us.

[tecnica2001]

there is one thing that i realy want to see for 2010 vonats and thats every car get tech. and the classics and heavy metal classes be stock no mods. ( this is not a dig at you freddy i thought that thing was way cool) but just run them the way they were back in the day, and i dont mean batt. radios and esc i mean shocks tire cutting them in half lol sorry freddy i had to, but just leave the mods. to truck, buggy and 4wd. i think it will put on a better show

Woah...

Weren't you the one suggesting that for next year I mill out a chassis plate for the Bearhawk??

"Spec Class"?? are you serious?? Tech inspections?? come on, we would only have time to do 2 qualifiers and the mains.... If I would've beaten Brandon by 3-4 laps, then it would've been a big deal, and I would've understood. But I didn't and I came in 2nd. So what's the big deal...

After Breaking a dog bone on my Bearhawk, I had to rig up a set of B4 CVDs in order to get my car up and running, now Imagine if you will, if that wasn't allowed, then I would've been screwed, broke in the first qualifier, and I wasn't going to get my $$ back.

A lot of these cars, are very very old...Spare or Replacement Parts availability for some of these cars is not abundant, so we gotta "Ghetto Rig" some of these cars to get em running and be more durable. If I had told Mark, John and Erich, hey my Car broke, I can't race it, they would've told me the same thing, "ghetto rig a set of B4 cvds and get it running again".

I should've kept my mouth shut and my car hidden, that way, no controversy, no problems, and I wouldn't feel like such a cheater...

[Mazdaj]

[

Plus who do you want to compete and join the vintage nationals- personally I represent a large portion of R/Cers- may have always backyard bashed but never raced- and would like to now, given a good atmosphere, where competition is present and active but not arrogant and demeaning, you don't have to own the best and newest stuff to compete- which is what has drawn me to want to be at VONATS next year.

A perfect quote to think about. When did RC racing become like every other sport?
What ever happened to having fun? Yeah, I was racing a long time ago and the reason I got out was because of money.Why spend so much to get beat by someone who spends so much for a hobby? It's not worth it. We had a local track where guys ran Blackfoots, Big Brutes, Big Bears all together- no one was pissed at the end of the day-you laughed off the results and looked foward to the following weekend. Maybe I'm naive, but, enough of the lipo, brushless, 2.2",... stuff. Would you have run it on a Fox back in '88? no, probably not. Bring the Vintage back to the Vintage Nationals.

[tecnica2001]

[

Plus who do you want to compete and join the vintage nationals- personally I represent a large portion of R/Cers- may have always backyard bashed but never raced- and would like to now, given a good atmosphere, where competition is present and active but not arrogant and demeaning, you don't have to own the best and newest stuff to compete- which is what has drawn me to want to be at VONATS next year.

A perfect quote to think about. When did RC racing become like every other sport?
What ever happened to having fun? Yeah, I was racing a long time ago and the reason I got out was because of money.Why spend so much to get beat by someone who spends so much for a hobby? It's not worth it. We had a local track where guys ran Blackfoots, Big Brutes, Big Bears all together- no one was pissed at the end of the day-you laughed off the results and looked foward to the following weekend. Maybe I'm naive, but, enough of the lipo, brushless, 2.2",... stuff. Would you have run it on a Fox back in '88? no, probably not. Bring the Vintage back to the Vintage Nationals.

To really bring back "Vintage" to the Vintage Nationals,
1- The track conditions would have to be in a comparable to track conditions back in the
day for the old tires to work.

2- We would have to buy NICDs or NIMHs packs that a lot of us already sold, I ran my
first VONATs with NIMH packs, but it was a hassle for me to run 2 classes, having to
come out, balance, equalize, and charge the batteries after every heat. Lipo offers you the convenience of just throw them on the charger, and run them, I ran 4 classes, with 3 lipos and 1 NIMH pack, two chargers, and still had time to go around and talk to people, and enjoy the races.

3- We would have to buy Brushed Motors that we would have to rebuild after a couple of races.

4- We would have to buy Vintage wheels and tires, which aren't really readily available and if you can find a set, you're expected to shell out top $$ for them, only to find out that they won't work for the track conditions.

I know lipo/brushless technology wasn't available for the r/c industry when these cars were raced, but it's convenience it's undeniable, If they only allowed NICD/NIMH/Brushed Motors, I don't see how this Race would grow, to tell you the truth...

[MelvinsArmy]

This topic seems to be getting kind of serious.

Mazdaj, it's still like that. At least for me. Yeah, a lot of guys run lipo, 2.2's, brushless, etc. Both years I've been there, I ran vintage tires, NIMH and brushed motors. I might finally buy a brushless for my LXT to run next year. Don't let that stuff get you down. This is a vintage race. If people want to run that stuff, who cares? Just like back in the day, I'm just happy to race. Yeah, I would be tickled if I ever won anything, but that's not the reason I'm there. I'm there to have fun first and foremost. The minute it's no longer fun, I'm putting everything up on eBay. These are toys. Back in the day I was funded by a paper route and lawn mowing jobs. I raced against engineers and adults making a very good living. They had far superior setups. They would help me when I needed it. They would help me stay competitive and now and then I would beat them. It was exciting to do, and I'm sure they were just happy to have one more car on the track that would pose a challenge every now and then. That's what is fun, the racing. There's a lot more important things in life to get serious or upset about. It actually makes me laugh (on the inside) to see someone yelling from the drivers stand, whether it's at another driver or a marshal or whatever. I can't imagine getting stressed out over this stuff. Nothing is to be gained. No money. No fame. Nothing that is useful in the real world. This is recreation. These are toys.

[tecnica2001]

Awesome Post Scott....

[fatkidracing14]

i would like to say this,and i hope everyone opened mindly thinks about it...as some of these post may sound negitave they are all 100% positive!!!!! please remember we are trying to make the vonats a better race. the vintage nats. are not about one persons ideas, its about all of us that love r/c cars, its about not forgeting where the sport has come from. my posts were just ideas, hey im a mod guy!! i love to throw big power,good setups and sticky tire at it and going balls out, but im not everyone. i think this was a great idea by freddy to get everyones input so this race has a litte bit of everyone in it.... so if you have any ideas post them, lets work together and have fun with this! so please dont get mad if someone dont like your idea lisen to there idea and think how to make both of your ideas work together. i hope everone can see where i'm coming from with this and that this will help us work together!!!!


thank you, Jay

[Brandon G]

Having said all that, I don't think there is a realistic solution to make it a more realistic vintage race. Not until there are a lot more entries and they could break things up further. The only other thing I could think of would be if each year they picked a vintage year for the big classes, like say we're going to run a pre-1987 only buggy class. That is, no Losis, no Stealths, etc. RC10's vs Ultimas vs Foxes, that would be an interesting race. Probably not going to happen, but until it does I think we've got a lot more 1994 racing ahead of us.

Well said Scott. It all comes down to the # of entries and how many classes we can segregate the vehicles into. Until you get enough to do that, you will have to roll the vehicles into the classes they most closely fit in.

Before you start thinking that this is a typical RC race, come out and join in! Because it isn't. I've been to the big races. Everybody has their poker faces on. Hardly anyone wants to help or share setups unless they are "team members". Any advantage is scrutinized and red flags and complaints come up like crazy. Heck, Mark was on the PA giving tips for making the cars handle better!

The atmosphere at the Vonats is relaxed and enjoyable. Almost everybody who participates realizes this and this state of mind flows. I am a very competitive person when it comes to RC, but I can tell you this for a fact: If I finished dead last in every race I entered, I would still consider the weekend a win for me. The "community" that exists here has a very common thread. They love vintage cars, and, love sharing ideas and stories about their experiences in the past. It is a chance to place faces with names, make new friends, look at some awesome rigs, aquire interesting vehicles/parts (guilty:oops:), race, and just have a good time. What more could you ask for?

There were a few people who showed up with cars that came out later than 94. Were they turned away? Absolutely not! Their vehicles were put in the class they belong, and everybody just rolled with it. No controversy, no whining, nothing. I wish all RC racing had this attitude.

As far as the newer technology putting others at a disadvantage, all you have to do is look at the cars of the leaders in each class. Go over them with a fine tooth comb if you feel the need, but they all exhibit the same ideal. Well prepped vintage cars in the hands of good drivers. If new tech was going to win races alone, then the Losi XX's should have reigned supreme. Threaded shocks give no advantage to anybody. The shocks still do the same thing. Principles are the same, but the conveniences evolve. Lipo's are the popular way to go now due to the sheer ease of operation. If they were as labor intensive as Nicd or Nimh, then it would have never gone anywhere. The only RACING advantage you get from the Lipo is a minor weight savings. As far as I could see, this was spec racing. Everybody knew what tires worked on this track ahead of time, and everybody was running the same wind motors. Nothing else really gives distinct advantages.

[tecnica2001]

Well put Brandon....

Hey,

Are you running that Kyosho ZX at the VONATs next year??

[tazz888]

Well said Brandon!!!

This race is all about having fun and hanging out with friends. This was only the 2nd time this race was held and it almost doubled in entries. Hopefuly next year will show the same growth. When the amount of entries gets to the point that the classes can be broken down more it can be done. Currently there are not enough to do that, the classes would be diluted too much.

Now for another point.....

I was a big opponent of this idea but now I think it may be something to seriously consider. People mentioned changing the cut-off year to 95. This was generaly not wanted, but since we are looking to have the event grow and open it up to more racers this may be a good idea. Not all people are going to go and buy and pre 94 car just to run this one event. Many people have XXT's, XXcr's and T2/B2's kicking around. Opening up the event to these vehicles can/will draw more racers. The improvements that these cars have over the currently allowed cars is not that great. What people need to remember is this.... The car can only help you so much, the real factor is the driver and their ability. Kyle could have probably still won the 2wd buggy class if he was driving a Hornet. He's that good!!! Now take me.... I could have run a T4 in truck and I still would not have done any better my B-Main win with my 10T. I still say my 10T handled better than my T4 ever has!!!! My 4wd entry for 2010 may cause a bit of controversy as well. It has been generaly accepted by some on this forum as being released in 95 but I have been told by the mfg. that the official release date according to their records was November of 94. Will I have a problem next year?..... Maybe but it's not going to stop me from running it and having a good time. I already know that Raul is going to whoop my butt in 4wd with his Procat anyway!!!!

It's all about having fun and reliving the good ol' days when RC racing was not only about winning.

[tecnica2001]

I already know that Raul is going to whoop my butt in 4wd with his Procat anyway!!!!

What about me, I can whoop your but with my ZX...

Hey Ron, Good point made. How about increasing the cut off date by a year, every three years.

How about this for a provision or handicap for Heavy Metal Class.

RC10 Heavy Metal Conversion are required to run Blackfoot or similar sized tires, all other Entry Level trucks, Lunchbox, Blackfoot etc, may run modern 2.2 racing tires....

That'll equalize things a bit.... Talk amongst yourselves...

[MelvinsArmy]

I would vote against moving the cutoff to 1995. Yeah, the technology might not be that different, but that argument can quickly become a slippery slope. Yeah, upping the year might bring a few more racers, but that argument could also be used for allowing B4s in the race. In my opinion a XX is borderline vintage, it's really not a vintage car. A B2 is definitely not a vintage car. In BMX we would call bikes from that era/generation mid-school. This is a vintage race. I think of vintage r/c as the first generation of off road buggies and the first generation of off road race buggies. The XX is already a second generation car, as is the RC10 Worlds car. If we keep pushing the date forward, we really are getting away from the spirit of the race. imho, a vintage buggy race should have RC10s, Ultimas, Foxes, etc. Because of the rules as they are now, nobody in their right mind would enter a Fox in the 2wd buggy class.

This is all just my opinion. To be honest I think the rules and guidelines as they are set up now are pretty good.