RC10T 94' prototype shock towers-RC10T2 Rear shock tower mod

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RC10T 94' prototype shock towers-RC10T2 Rear shock tower mod

Post by littleVETTE »

With respect to Joey (jkracing) I'm going to start this thread so anyone could easily find the RC10T2 mod in it's own thread, and not go digging for it.

But first a little back history on the RC10T and its 1994 ROAR NATIONALS prototype shock towers.

----------------------- 1994 RC10T Prototype Shock Towers ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In it's last days the rc10t had it's own custom modifications to the front and rear shock towers to better handle the bumpier tracks and larger jumps. the rear tower was raised farther up and they added custom graphite rear shock mounts to the rear arms, the front shock tower was wider than stock, and the team body had to be modified to fit the new shock towers. there was a quick fix that Ruffy explains to better fit the new shock towers, and Associated made a custom modified body for some of the team. as Brad explains.

I remember asking Daryl Lane and Ruffy Rios about a prototype shock tower that was being used on the rc10t. i thought Daryl might of had something to do with that prototype rear tower. because it looked very A&L-ish looking. he didn't. it was custom from Associated. this is what Ruffy told me about those prototype shock towers and body when i asked him about it a while ago:

"This is a tough one to remember, but from what I can recall:

These were prototype towers that Associated had made for the Nat's and provided to most of the team drivers. I remember having them on my truck but I can't remember if these were the runs made by Composite Craft or not. They may have been CC made towers as I recall we also made the lower shock mounts of graphite too.
To my recollection, the new towers being tested with the lower shock mounts mounted onto the rear arm greatly enhanced the trucks side-to-side stability, and also allowed the truck to dampen more appropriately larger jumps as we had more "up" travel with them so we could soak up larger jumps before bottoming out the shock. The new towers actually also moved the shock upwards further into the lexan body which would have lowered the trucks overall ride height had it not been for the lower mounts that attached to the existing arms. The lower mounts were mainly to account for this rise into the body.
We had to modify the existing bodies at the time, by heating the shock cavity areas with heat guns and using a soft round object to push into the cavity to provide us more "shock cavity height" in the body for the taller shock towers.

Hope this helps.
Ruffy"

"I can't recall doing anything special with the shocks. More than likely we ran them without limiters so we would have the down travel and the up travel. I am sure though that we experimented with limiters, but cannot remember, apologies as this was a long time ago.
:D

regards,
Ruffy"

These are the prototype shock towers mentioned in RCCA february 1995, for the 1994 ROAR truck NATIONALS:

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Brad Reelf's rc10t truck with the prototype shock towers and graphite shock mounts.

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Here are some more details straight from Brad when i asked him about how long they continued using the rc10t prototype shock towers, he also sent over pictures of his modified rc10t body. my question came up after i noticed Jason Ruona's rc10t truck was sporting the same prototype towers at a later race in the year (sept. 30 - oct 02, 1994). at the NORRCA truck world cup at the ranch pit stop. the way the truck was handling you could clearly see that the new updated suspension was taking to the bumpy track very good...

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Video of the 1994 NORRCA truck world cup, from Gene Husting's r/c car racing videos #25. starts @ 1 minute...

https://youtu.be/DFgBUVKZBM4

Brad's replies:

"You are correct. Associated gave us those towers for the 94 ROAR Truck Nats. We continued using them, until the T2 was released. There was a version for the GT also.

Associated made a limited number of bodies for us, for the Nats. I think they just built up sections of the mold, with Bondo. I still have mine, if you want some pics.
...

"Here are some shots of my truck body. I'm not proud of the paint job. It was a rush, just to get ready for the race.

They took the mold for the Team Truck body, and built up spots around the hood scoop and rear number plates. You can tell it was a rush job for them also. A wider hood scoop and better finished rear number plates ended up on the T2 body.

Brad"

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Ruffy's truck with the modified body, shock towers, and rear graphite shock mounts.

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------------------------- 1995 RC10T2 rear shock tower mod --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is carried over from Joey's 'Start of a T2 racer' thread (http://www.rc10talk.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=36893).
scr8p wrote:For you T2 guys.....

I don't think he would mind me posting this, but while discussing the B1.5 concept awhile back I had asked BradR about his time at AE and how involved he was with R&D back then:

I didn't have much input in the R&D aspect. Bret, Jason (Ruona), and I were part of the non-California test team. They would send us prototype parts to test, but the design was pretty much determined by that point. One exception was the T2. They sent us a prototype T2 to test, which was a heavily modified RC10T. It had machined arms, towers, and 2.6 transmission. Bret, Jason, and I did some thorough testing with it (and our RC10T's) at Lake Park. We came to the conclusion that the new truck was easier to drive, but our old trucks were faster. The T2 went back to the drawing board, and that's why the suspension geometry on the production T2 was basically the same as the original RC10T.

I'm pretty sure this early testing is the reason why the team relocated the t2 rear shock tower to the front of the bulkhead, along with relocating the shocks to the rear of the shock tower.

According to rc car action's description of mark pavidis's 1997 norrca winning t2 truck this relocation mod put the rear shocks closer to the center of the rear arms to reduce rear arm flex. it was done for both mod and stock.

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Adam Rayls dominated this year's 2017 vintage nats with his T2 and B2 rigs. With a TQ and win in each class! His T2 had the rear shock tower mod done to it. I asked him about his setup: He used a shorty lipo with four B2 battery pads behind the battery, a slipper eliminator was used, and to mount his body in the rear he used a single bolt with four thick shock limiters bolted directly to the stock body mount. It is a simple yet effective body extension. As you can tell by now he's a seasoned racer. So he didn't have to worry about ripping his body apart. If you look closely he also added two 4-40 lock nuts to the top two bolts that hold the shock tower to the bulkhead. To further stiffen the rear end of his T2. I'ts also extra security. His setup sheets of both rides will be added to Petit Rc. Be sure to check them out if you're looking for a winning setup to dial in your T2 and B2. http://site.petitrc.com/setup/associated/SetupSheetsAssociatedRC10T2.htm

Many thanks to Adam for the details and the pictures he provided.

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Many Thanks to Adam Rayls, Ruffy Rios, Brad Reelfs, and Daryl Lane for answering my questions and helping add pictures.

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Re: T2 Rear shock tower mod and RC10T prototype ROAR NATS to

Post by littleVETTE »

i contacted brad and curtis husting about any other info that could be shared on the t2 rear shock tower mod. so far i had the privilege to talk to brad about it. i asked him if there was anything that he would like to share with the rest of us about it...

brad:

"Yeah, I remember the rear shock tower mod. It looks like you have it figured out. I had forgot about the extended body mounts, probably because I never had a set. I used two shock towers on my truck; a full tower on the front of the bulkhead (like yours), and a chopped-off tower in the stock location. The chopped-off tower worked as a spacer (between the transmission) and a body mount bracket.

If I remember correctly, we also added 0.060" spacers between the rear arms and shock brackets. It moved the shocks a little further forward. That created enough clearance to run the rear hub carriers in the short wheelbase position, without the tie rods hitting the shocks.

Brad"

this is my setup and pictures of what brad was referring to about the shock tower relocation, spacer, and rear shock mounts...

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Re: T2 Rear shock tower mod and RC10T prototype ROAR NATS to

Post by littleVETTE »

we also talked more about the rc10t prototype shock towers and shock mounts that were used at the 1994 roar nats.

i asked him: "any idea if you guys messed around with other custom rear shock mounts to place the bottom shock location farther out on the arm?"

brad:

"...The only other shock mounts I'm aware of were the prototype parts. They had the same dimensions as the production pieces, but were made of graphite. A lot of team guys continued using those, even after the production (molded) pieces were released. ..."

i asked brad about the front prototype shock tower and if it was identical to the production shock tower, or if it was slightly different.

brad:

"I'm think the front tower (both prototype and production) is the same as the three-hole tower on the RC10T, just made of graphite. All we did was move the shocks to the outside holes (tower and arms), and use softer springs.

Brad"

you could see what brad is talking about on ruffy's truck.

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i'll leave it to brad to share with us the development, creation, and testing of the prototype rc10t shock towers. anyone notice anything about the shock shafts on brad's truck? slight blackish in color.

brad:

"I also realized something else in the pics I sent. Did you notice the black shock shafts? That was a coating we tested, before unobtanium.

Brad"

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Re: T2 Rear shock tower mod and RC10T prototype ROAR NATS to

Post by littleVETTE »

i'll be posting the details on the t2 rear shock tower mod here shortly.

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Re: T2 Rear shock tower mod and RC10T prototype ROAR NATS to

Post by janaya »

Nice I have been trying to figure out the best way of doing this mod and now we have somewhere to reference for it. I'll be paying close attention here, Thanks for posting this Rob.
Javier -

RC10 Shelfer, RC10 Worlds Car Runner, RC10T Shelfer, RC10T2 Runner, SC18, JConcepts BJ4, B5M and counting.
RC10T WOIN Build http://www.rc10talk.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=32541

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Re: T2 Rear shock tower mod and RC10T prototype ROAR NATS to

Post by shoman24v »

I may do this mod when the details are posted :)
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Re: T2 Rear shock tower mod and RC10T prototype ROAR NATS to

Post by slotcarrod »

Your research is top notch!

The black coating on the shafts is likely DLC, the same we use on our race MX bikes. RG3 are the guys that do our MX suspension and they know what they are doing!

This info was taken from RG3 web site:

Diamond Like Carbon Coating
The Diamond Kit got its name from the most exotic, performance enhancing coating known to the suspension world today. DLC or Diamond-Like-Carbon coating is harder, slicker and more durable than Titanium Nitride as well as standard hard chrome. It is intended for the inner fork tube and shock shaft.

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Re: T2 Rear shock tower mod and RC10T prototype ROAR NATS to

Post by littleVETTE »

to get this t2 rear shock tower mod going... if you're not using the stock t2 battery brace and you're using another way of bracing your batteries you could skip this step.

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since you're going to move the shock tower to the front of the bulkhead the first thing you'll have to modify is the rear shock tower's new battery brace opening. i used my dremel and a cut wheel to get this done. i finished it off with a flat file. the cut on the bottom of the shock tower will be 3/8" across and 3/16" high. once you have that done you will have to slightly file the edge of the shock tower (circled). this will make it easier for the battery brace to slide in and out.

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next you got to modify the battery brace to fit the new location of the shock tower. i recommend using the 3/4" socket head screws for this particular area to brace your tranny to the bulkhead/tower. you could use 3/4" button head screws, but that'll be more of a pain maneuvering your allen driver into the chassis and removing those screws to service your tranny. it's a lot quicker removing socket head screws with a hex ball driver. if you do use the socket head screws you will have to cut the battery brace slightly to clear them.

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cut 1/2" down both sides of the battery brace's tip, then cut 1/16" off the battery brace's sides. when you're done you should have a width of about 11/32" on the battery brace's tip. you will also have to cut down the braces rear vertical tab down from 1/8" down to 1/16". the battery brace will now slide easily in and out, up and down, in the shock tower.

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next up is the rear body mounts and bulkhead/tranny spacers. you could do what brad reelfs and the florida gang did with their t2's. he got an extra shock tower and left it in its normal place between the tranny and the REAR of the bulkhead. he also continued using the stock rear body mounts. this could be the ideal setup for anyone that doesn't want to hassle in making new extended body mounts or searching for spacers for this mod. just cut in these locations to clear the shocks and mount it up.

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for my t2 i opted to make a set of extended rear body mounts out of kydex. you could easily make a set of these if you have a heat gun and a little patience. they don't have to be kydex either. if you look at the other t2's that had extended rear body mounts they fabricated them from nearly anything that could support the body equally as the stock body mounts. the choice is up to you.

these are my first evolution body mounts. they were very sturdy. i sent both joey and daniel a set of these for their racer and pavidis replica. nothing was wrong with them but the flap was bothering me a bit. so... the body mounts have since then evolved with the flap extended downward so that both bolt heads and nuts are clamping down equally on the body mount to the shock tower. hopefully with this extended flap the body mount is still equally sturdy as the first evolution body mount. i'll be testing the new ones before i send another set to joey and daniel for their t2's.

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if you're real anal on getting the tranny/bulkhead area correctly spaced like the original shock tower's width i would recommend you using the older larger ".132" " associated white shock limiters. the width of the shock tower comes in @ .1335" ~ .13340". the majority of the newer associated large limiters came in @ .12xx". the older white associated shock limiters did the job right at .1335". you don't have to use these associated limiters, the spacers could be anything you could find.

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next you'll have to mount up your shocks to the rear of the shock tower and to the rear of the lower shock arm mounts. i recommend you use 4-40" mini nuts to secure the bolt that holds the lower portion of the shock to the shock arm mount. over time the pounding of shocks will loosen up the bolt within the shock arm mount.

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if you like changing the length of your truck's wheel base, and/or you're planning on using a wider bore shock/spring setup, you might also consider using 4-40" washers, flat 4-40" nuts, or spacers between the arm and shock arm mount (circled). this will push your lower shocks forward and will give your rear hubs breathing room from your larger springs and/or larger shocks. brad also suggests...

"...we also added 0.060" spacers between the rear arms and shock brackets. It moved the shocks a little further forward. That created enough clearance to run the rear hub carriers in the short wheelbase position, without the tie rods hitting the shocks."

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once you're done modifying your t2 rear shock tower you will have to readjust your body over the shock tower and shocks new location, and ream new mounting holes for the extended body mounts. if you're using brad reelf's shock tower method this won't be necessary. i haven't tried his method yet so i can't quite tell you if the stock rear body mounts will still work with your body's stock location mounting holes. i'll update this part of the body mounts once i have figured it out. hopefully brad could chime in on this portion of the mounting.

if there are questions about anything post it up.

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Re: T2 Rear shock tower mod and RC10T prototype ROAR NATS to

Post by littleVETTE »

i was looking over some photos i had and i then remembered what brad had said previously:

"...They sent us a prototype T2 to test, which was a heavily modified RC10T. It had machined arms, towers, and 2.6 transmission. ..."

judging by the shock towers, arms, tires, electronics, what's the possibility that this truck is the t2 test mule that brad was referring to?

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and this buggy?? test mule for the b2?


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Re: T2 Rear shock tower mod and RC10T prototype ROAR NATS to

Post by Jim85IROC »

That truck is extremely cool! I'd love to hear more about its history. But... is that a 2.6 trans? It looks like a normal stealth to my untrained eye.

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Re: T2 Rear shock tower mod and RC10T prototype ROAR NATS to

Post by GoMachV »

Those are cool but definitely not built in the style of Associated.
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Re: T2 Rear shock tower mod and RC10T prototype ROAR NATS to

Post by Phin »

EvilAsh won that buggy and found out the arms were made by RaeTech. So not an AE prototype.

http://www.rc10talk.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=36388

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Re: T2 Rear shock tower mod and RC10T prototype ROAR NATS to

Post by BradR »

That's an interesting truck, but it's not the prototype we tested. The truck we tested looked closer to a normal RC10T. We were already using the new shock towers and brackets on our RC10Ts, so the shock positions were pretty much the same. We were also already using the short steering bellcranks, from the GT. I can't remember all of the details from the prototype, but the major differences were the transmission and front suspension.

The prototype was built on a standard tub chassis, but it wasn't anodized. The transmission had a machined housing, which was made to fit the GT diff (2.6). The chassis had a cut out under the transmission (like the T2), to accommodate the larger diff. I think the rear of the chassis was also cut off, with a wrap around motor guard (like the T2), but I honestly don't remember.

The front suspension had straight arms, not swept back. The arms were machined, with fiberglass brackets for shock mounts. Each bracket fit into a slot in the center of the arm, rather than attach to the front or back. Because of the straight arms, the truck had an overall longer wheelbase. In hindsight, the longer wheelbase was probably the biggest contributor to the handling changes.

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Re: T2 Rear shock tower mod and RC10T prototype ROAR NATS to

Post by Jim85IROC »

Great information. Thanks!

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Re: T2 Rear shock tower mod and RC10T prototype ROAR NATS to

Post by littleVETTE »

those rear suspension mounts screamed associated for some reason. just like the stealth buggies.

great piece of information brad. thank you for sharing that. and thanks to phin for the information too.

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