School me on the stealth #6560

[Alan_r]

Jws: Possibly. Mistakes can be made. But I cleaned everything off with alcohol prep pads before assembly to remove moulding residue. It's part of my trans prep routine. Plus I tore it down an inspected/rebuilt it twice after the initial build to investigate the noise. Could I have assembled it wrong three times? It's possible. I didn't notice any plastic flaps, but I generally don't do much to the cases because I know they are machined pretty close. So if it was really small, like magnifying glass small, I may have missed it. What would cause the idler to fail? I De-blurred each tooth under my magnifying glass and didn't notice any problems.


Dave: Yeah man I agree at this point. I ordered new cases along with a ceramic bearing set. So the only parts being reused are the outdrives. What a crazy, unexpected experience. That thing failed totally. Within one week under low power. I'm putting an information package together and am going to send it to AE. Maybe they can figure out why. I like the idea of running a drill through those holes. Hadn't thought of that. The world's car holes allowed the screws to push right through. The screwing into the motor plate is what held the trans together.

GoM: I don't know man! I'm only reporting what has happened. I searched for the #6560 for that very reason. I even bought an extra top shaft and idler gear when I bought the World's kit because I expected to have problems. But it was one of the best kits I've ever assembled. ??????

Dave: I'll take some pictures with my machinist rule when I get back from the track today.

Bull: The #6560 Stealth says to put stealth lube on the diff balls and rings only. Black grease on the thrust bearings. The world's kit says to apply stealth lube to the ball diff AND all the internal gears. Then black grease on the thrust bearings. So the #6560 runs gears dry, the World's does not. I was frustrated and trying to load pictures, I'll add better ones pointing this out.

Thanks for the help so far guys. Like I said earlier, I'm a huge Associated fan (own RC10ce, world's, b44.3, prosc, and a B5m with pretty much all Reedy power) and I've never had any issues with anything. This really surprised me and obviously with that track record I blame myself first. That's what I'm troubleshooting, what failed, me or the transmission?

[Alan_r]

Here are the cases, close up with a machinist rule. Hope this helps.

[DaveM]

Hi Alan,

I measured a new set of cases,

between the center of the top shaft hole and the center of the idler hole it is 13mm.

Looking at your first picture your case looks to be 11mm.

If there is a difference of even 1mm that would cause problems.

If that is right that is why the idler stripped it is too close to the top shaft.

Cheers, Dave.

[Alan_r]

Wow Dave, you've got to be kidding me. 2mm! No wonder it failed. That's a mile for all I's and P's. Thanks for checking that.

I ran the 6 gear at the track yesterday. There is a difference. I can't really explain it other than the car didn't feel as smooth on corner exit and fast straight stretches with low jumps spaced throughout. It was more work to drive. Once you've gone Stealth you can't go back I guess.....

Thanks for the help guys. I'll come back and report what AE says about it.

[Alan_r]

Ok, I sent Associated a nice email explaining everything that happened and asked for assistance in figuring this out. We'll see what happens. But that got me thinking. What exactly can be done? I mean, I bought racing parts, put them on a race car, and it broke on a race track. Summit Racing would get a hernia laughing so hard as they hit the delete button....lol. Anyway, what can I do to prevent this from happening again? Is there a way to tell for sure that the parts are defective? I mean, no bells went off when I put it together the first time. I now have two Stealths, ones broken and I'm afraid to run the other.

On that note it's interesting to feel the differences between the Stealth and 6 gear. The most glaring difference is only subtle. On our track, there are some sharp curves that lead to a short straight and a double. You really have to get on it and at the same time get lined up if you're going to clear the jumps. The stealth seemed to center itself earlier giving an extra second or two to get situated. The 6 gear seems to remain unsure of itself longer, making the timing more difficult to do properly. The other thing is after landing an 1/8 scale triple, you immediately make a sharp right into the long straightaway. The stealth locked in almost immediately and you could really pour on the power sooner. The 6 gear requires careful application of power or you'll start a fatal fishtail. Once it's swaying, the only cure is to completely back off. You really have to work hard to be smooth with the 6 gear. The next thing is that even though my 6 is worked over and very smooth, the motor temperature is higher than it was with the Stealth. Obviously this means it was a much more efficient transmission. Just some observations. I'm officially a complete dork because I find this stuff fascinating! Lol

[DaveM]

Hi Alan,

When you assemble the gearbox, turn the top shaft by hand.

As all three shafts are running on bearings, it should turn smoothly and very easily.

Cheers, Dave.

[Alan_r]

Ok, this morning I get an email from Nick over at AE. He asks specifically about putting lube on the gears within the transmission. Now, if you recall, the #6560 manual shows to only put stealth lube on the diff balls and rings within the ball diff itself. The only other lube is the black grease that goes in the thrust bearing. That is exactly how I built the #6560 that failed. However, the World's Car manual says to apply stealth lube to the gears as well. So for that car, that's what I did.

He says to "build the transmission as the manual says but only use the lube and grease in the diff." FYI to anyone still building one of these.

As far as the failed transmission. He does not know based on the pictures. Failed idler gear was the first guess.

Now keep in mind, Associated is/was under no obligation to help me or fix this transmission. The kit is discontinued so the hobby shop I bought it from can't replace it. I didn't buy it directly from Associated so it's really not their problem there either. Not to mention, it's a part for a race car and was used on a race track.

Here is what they offered. Being that I already bought replacement gears and diff parts he said I can either rebuild it and it should be ok, or...and here is the kicker "send us the parts and we will check it out and find out what the cause was. We can also assemble it for you and then let you know what they did and found."

I think that's a pretty darn good response and quite surprising considering it's an $80 discontinued part. To be honest I expected to pretty much be told oh well, that sucks, good luck. A+ for trying to help the customer. In almost 26 years of running Associated products I have never had to contact the company. And my first time resulted in a concerned response within 24 hours with an offer to help. A+. Not much else to be said.

So that's what I'm going to do. I'm curious as to what the true cause was and hopefully they can figure it out by checking it out themselves. I'll post back whenever I hear back from them and publish the final diagnosis.

[DaveM]

Hi Alan,

It would be good to hear what Team Associated have to say.

Cheers, Dave.

[GoMachV]

They have been doing that for people with the world's cars that had multiple misbuilt parts, and also why they took the remaining stock of worlds cars and had Don build all of em. That way when they run across parts that are bad, they can just pick another and move on. Good people, great company, but poor quality control on a couple pieces.

[Alan_r]

GMach: You know, I was in the process of writing up a reply that kind of defended the quality control of these kits. Let me back up; I usually take time to write my posts, wherever they may be, because 1, it's kind of permanent, and 2, I want to fully express what I'm trying to say in a clear manner. So, this thread has been sitting open on my workbench for a few hours. In that time, I started to think about what I was defending and why. That's when I realized that over the last decade or so, up until recently I have only bought replacement parts for my 1990 Championship car. Others have been used off of Ebay and for the most part, already built or recently disassembled. So I really don't have a lot of experience when it comes to the Associated of today. You could say that what I remember was the Associated of Gene and Cliff. Two hobbyists and racers not so different than you and me. These guys and the people around them had a passion for what they did and took a great amount of pride in the products they put out. Now this is not to say that that is gone. But today, the kits are put together by people in another country and they likely don't care one way or the other whether the part is for a television or a toaster, let alone an intricate R/C race car. And as such they likely could care less whether you or I have issues with something they put out. Those assembly lines are quite anonymous. Once an issue is identified, it is very difficult to change the production run in a cost effective and timely manner. The guys in California now have to deal with that.

Having said all of this, in the last month I have dropped some serious coin in Associated's direction. I bought a new Stealth kit, a new World's Car, a new B44.3. a new PROSC 4x4, a new RC10B5M kit, 3 410R's, 4 Reedy M3's of various turns, 4 4000+ mah Reedy batteries and a truck load of shock oils, diff fluids, wheels for everything by the dozen and pre-emptive replacement parts.

The Stealth failed within one week. I am VERY confident I was not at fault.
The World's Car went together nicely, except for the steering bellcrank bushings which did not fit. Luckily I had bearings on hand, or the car would be sitting.
I was building the B44.3 tonight, as a matter of fact I stopped and starting typing this. I stopped because I can go no further. It's missing the screws that bolt the geared diff's together. 2.5 x 10mm Flat Head Screws ASC31350 to be exact. Unfortunately I don't have any of these handy. I am on step 3 and my $379.99 before shipping car sits on the bench.
The ProSC was complete, but the pinion gear would have surely stripped the spur gear had I not corrected it. Now, it does say in the manual how to check and fix this. But the truck is RTR. How many ten year old kids are going to do this BEFORE running a battery through that awesome looking truck?
I haven't started building the B5M so I can't comment on it.

Am I mad? Not really. It's a hobby and the world does not stop if my RC car doesn't get to race this weekend. Besides, Associated does seem to be responsive. When Nick suggested I could send the Stealth to them he did not offer an address. I noticed an address in his signature but wanted to make sure that was where to send it. I got a reply from someone else very quickly in all caps, "YES THE ADDRESS IS CORRECT". So someone is there to field this stuff. Possibly overworked but there nonetheless.

So at the end of the day (literally), has my recent experience with modern Associated kits been a good one? Hmmm. Am I still going to race only Associated vehicles and trash talk TLR and the rest while doing so? You bet your A$$. The fact that I bought a PROSC to compete with should show my level of dedication. Lol. But do I have a warm and fuzzy feeling when it comes to what you're talking about Mach? No. Because I think you are right.

So what does all this mean? I don't know man. Let's just hope the guys in California continue to care about the stuff they have little control over; and in the end, we continue to enjoy this stuff for what it is, not what we wish it was.

[GoMachV]

Let's just hope the guys in California continue to care about the stuff they have little control over; and in the end, we continue to enjoy this stuff for what it is, not what we wish it was.

Well said, and I completely agree

[bully]

They are great at backing their products, which is a rare occurrence today so they will continue to get my business also.. Good read mate,sorry to see you having a bit of bad luck with your new mega haul of ae stuff....

[Alan_r]

Man.....lol Is there a emoticon for crying till you throw up? Or laughing? Or both? I think the TLR camp is sabotaging my karma......guys, I'm having the worst luck even beyond what I thought was possible...as you know, my stealth is on it's way to the land of surfers and beach blonds. I bought the missing parts for my new B44.3, which by the way ended up being more than just the diff screws being missing. Three outer diff shims were missing as well. So.....bought. Finally I get the car together. Ridiculous looking machine. If this thing runs as awesome as it looks, it will take off to the moon. So anyway, I bolt in the new Reedy Mach 3 10.5, intricately wire up and solder my new Blackbox 410R, turn on my old and trusty Futaba 3pm and get ready to calibrate. Press the power button and the red LED flickers and then goes dead. Nothing. Cold. No servo, no lights, no sounds.....nothing. I check all my connections. Clean as a pro job. DOA. I swear I smell a slight odor of fried electronics when I sniff the thing. So I break out an old Tamiya brushless esc just to check the rest. Works fine. My first 410r lasted 1.2 seconds. My hands are up man. I surrender. So on Monday I'm going to have to try and work with Stormer Hobbies out of Montana to see if they can help before contacting Associated/Reedy. If you think you had a bad hobby day, just read this thread and you'll feel better. Lol. It's funny, all my old or low end stuff is working great. Reedy SC550, flawless. Lrp spin, flawless, Reedy SC800, flawless. What's happening to me!!!!!! Lol

[Alan_r]

Ok, trans is in the hands of the California guys. Hopefully we'll get to the bottom of the transmission failure soon. It's funny, because I was forced to, I've got the 6 gear running really good. The only issue with it is that I find the diff needs rebuilt quite often to remain smooth. I guess that's why it's been updated..

No dice on my Reedy 410 so far. I'll kee trying to contact the original vendor. I can't believe that super expensive esc lasted 1.5 seconds before going up in smoke. I told the guys at the track about my woes and they all laughed; said to walk the pits and see what's under the hood of most of the cars. I did and found LRP, Hobbywing and Orion for the most part. Some of the dedicated Associated guys said that they really tried to stay loyal but kept having problems with the 410. Customer service is always good but what good is that when your car is down for a month at a time.....expensive lesson learned. My B44.3 build has been one issue after another. I've had it for a month and it hasn't left the garage. At this rate I'll be driving an old Egress at the Masters in November.

[mk-Zero]

If it makes you feel any better, I had issues with my 44.3 kit too, some incorrect parts. Anyway, it was worth the trouble, the thing is a missile and goes exactly where you point it.