Red Fox - Hot Trick Repro - RC Lohas

[CNA75]

I see that RC Lohas have released a repro version of the Red Fox. See here: http://www.rc-lohas.com/

I must say that I really rate what they are doing by re-creating the vintage Hot Trick parts. I understand that Hot Trick were not to everyone's taste bitd but it is great to see that they are reproducing this stuff as authentically as possible. And the quality looks to be very good. I must admit that I am seriously tempted by the Red Fox kit (also tempted by the Hot Shot Kit too!). It would look great with a few other period vintage hop-ups (e.g. front adjustable arms/roll bars, etc).....

[MelvinsArmy]

but it is great to see that they are reproducing this stuff as authentically as possible.

I couldn't disagree more.

[CNA75]

but it is great to see that they are reproducing this stuff as authentically as possible.

I couldn't disagree more.

Is that because you just didn't rate the Hot Trick stuff? I understand that the quality bitd was sometimes questionable (although I never saw any of the original Hot Trick stuff so couldn't comment with authority on that). The build quality of the lohas material, however, seems fairly high judging from the various threads on this forum.

I guess where I'm coming from is that I think it's great to see people make the effort to produce these things much like, for example, Marwan who has just repro'd the original Optima tyres. These reproductions are allowing many of us to access parts which seem impossible (or prohibitively expensive) to find/buy. And I like to support those who have made the effort where I can in the hope that it encourages further repro's of popular but rare items going forward (...avoiding, for now, the whole debate about whether repro's are a good thing generally)....

[tamiyadan]

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[CNA75]

That's very interesting. Thanks for the insight.

So in actual fact, it sounds like their hop-ups were to be avoided unless being used for shelfers (which weren't so common bitd, as parts were ubiquitous rather than rare). RC Lohas stuff would, therefore, seem to be everything which Hot Trick stuff should have been?

[shodog]

It was really hit and miss with hot trick. Somethings like their front yokomo 834 arms worked killer but other parts like their rc-10 arms were junk

[Lowgear]

What I still don't get is how all of these people are making money reproducing vintage R/C car parts and getting away with it scot-free. They're essentially bootleg products. You would think at least the big corporations would care. I guess its not worth their time and legal cost to peruse it.

Some people had concerns about me selling parts under the Sassy Chassis name but nobodies pointed their fingers at anyone else yet. Unless theres information out there that I'm unaware of I'm doing it more legally. I will not be reproducing any parts, nor will I be reusing the names of the products, logos, etc... On top of that I at least own (as far as I'm aware) the only legally binding thing left of the business which is their domain name.

Look at the Tecnacraft guy for example. He knows Lohas is reproducing his rims and doesn't seem to be overly concerned about it. So the bottom line appears to be do whatever you want because apparently you can get away with it no problem as nobodies going to bother you.

[MelvinsArmy]

Is that because you just didn't rate the Hot Trick stuff?

No, it's because I don't like people making copies of other people's work. They are bootlegs. I don't like bootlegs, be it a "Rollex" watch or a Lohas Hot Trick part.

So far I haven't seen any Lohas wheels that could pass as real Tecnacraft wheels. That is a good thing. I have no problem with creating parts inspired by old classics, but straight copying is bs.

[Charlie don't surf]

What I still don't get is how all of these people are making money reproducing vintage R/C car parts and getting away with it scot-free. They're essentially bootleg products. You would think at least the big corporations would care. I guess its not worth their time and legal cost to peruse it.

You can only to an extent, and manufactured parts in China- how would you enforce that they account for 92% off all confederated products worldwide


Look at the Tecnacraft guy for example. He knows Lohas is reproducing his rims and doesn't seem to be overly concerned about it. So the bottom line appears to be do whatever you want because apparently you can get away with it no problem as nobodies going to bother you.[/quote]

LOHAS is doing a rim set inspired by some Tecna's, but far from them- and to reproduce those rims
today with most Aluminum way over $2.60 per pound plus machining costs- you'd have to be nuts-

[Lowgear]

I was going to mention that about being in another country. Same thing with websites. You can get away with various things if you host in a country where its allowed.

Maybe using Tecnacraft wasn't the best example but you get what I'm trying to say.

[CNA75]

I'm no expert on IP law, but as I understand it if a product has been in the public domain for a certain length of time (ten years or so) any applicable patent is likely to have expired as the necessary technology/design will be out of date and no longer worth protecting. If, then, there are other products of a similar nature in existence at the time the original designer wants to try and subsequently protect his/her design, he/she will no longer be able to do so as the design will no longer be unique and, therefore, be capable of being patent protected. This is, I imagine, what is the case with the Lohas designs and other repro designs. Original patents (e.g. obtained by Hot Trick/Tecnacraft, etc) have most likely expired and there would be no way of re-obtaining them now so, in terms of design, there is nothing to enforce so Lohas, etc, would now, I expect, be quite safe.

I believe Trademark protection law is different. Once someone owns a trademark, that remains the case until it is sold or de-registered. As such, if the makers of repros marketed their items under the same name, e.g. under the names of Tecnacraft/Hot Trick/Sassy, then they are at risk of infringing the applicable trademarks and being challenged by the owners of the original Trademarks as they do not have rights to use those names/trademarks to sell their products. Lohas are not selling their stuff under the name of "Hot Trick"; it is under the name of "Lohas". The design is the same as Hot Trick but, as above, any patent protection has probably long expired and may now not be re-obtained. I would expect them to be quite safe.

After all that, there is always the question of whether the original owner of the IP has the means (financially/motivationally) to sue the relevant infringer. When you think about the fact that they must demonstrate a "loss" in order to be awarded damages, that loss is most likely very little (i.e. loss of profit) when compared against the cost of bringing a law suit. So, regardless of the applicable trademark and patent law, it is unlikely that anyone would bring a law suit as the cost far outweighs the benefits (....that is, until one of the repro'ers starts to make some real cash....)

[Lowgear]

1. U.S. Patents filed after June 8, 1995 expire 20 years from the date of filing.

2. U.S. Patents filed prior to June 8, 1995 expire 17 years from the date of issue, or 20 years from the first non-provisional patent application in the family - whichever is later.



I imagine it would be different in the UK.

What it boils down to is if these products were ever patented or not. I doubt many of these little companies got patents and things back then. Even if they did they're so old that the patents would be all but expired by now. With that being said it may technically be legal but its certainly not ethical. But in this day in age thats thrown out the window.

[a01butal]

I used to really get a kick out of Red Foxx.

[CNA75]

1. U.S. Patents filed after June 8, 1995 expire 20 years from the date of filing.

2. U.S. Patents filed prior to June 8, 1995 expire 17 years from the date of issue, or 20 years from the first non-provisional patent application in the family - whichever is later.



I imagine it would be different in the UK.

What it boils down to is if these products were ever patented or not. I doubt many of these little companies got patents and things back then. Even if they did they're so old that the patents would be all but expired by now. With that being said it may technically be legal but its certainly not ethical. But in this day in age thats thrown out the window.

As I understand it, you are considering using the "Sassy" name but producing different items under that name. I think your concern is probably more with trademark infringement rather than patent infringement as your designs will be different but will be marketed under the "Sassy" name. Probably worth doing a bit of research in that area to establish whether you would in fact be breaching any applicable laws - you may find that nothing under the "Sassy" name is protected and that you are free to do as you please - woth knowing the risks involved, however.

And if you have a moral dilemma, why not contact the original owners and seek their blessing..?

[Lowgear]

You are definitely right about that. I'll have to do some more research on it just to make sure that there aren't any trademarks.

I mentioned in the other thread that I would like nothing more than to contact the appropriate person regarding this. The only problem is nobody (at least here) knows who that is, and according to member flipwils11 the original owner has passed away.

So I'll take a shot at it since everything seems to be in my favor so far. The worst that can happen though highly unlikely is I'm sent a cease and desist letter. If that happens I'll try to work it out with the opposing party.

Also just for the record I'm not planning on this becoming anything too major. Its already proving to be a major headache getting anything designed and made. For me the best course of action is to simply sell parts in which people have designed and made that would like to sell under the Sassy Chassis name. I've already figured out all the details and if the members here would like me to go over them publicly I don't have a problem with that.