Super Astute rere

[RCveteran]

Can we have a stock Tamiya class with silver can only at Vonats. These cars just aren't as durable as RC10 and XX vintage racing so it would be nice to have a less aggressive class for them knowing they are above the hornet type class.

I am in the rerelease everything camp. If you want a good investment better and more predictable things than RC.

[stickboy007]

I think a Tamiya-specific class would be a great idea, although it's a question of how to fit it into the program. My general preference would be to take the Classic class and split that into 2wd and 4wd, and then expand the rules a bit to allow the 2wd class to run modern tires and generally allow for some non-plastic-tub chassis (e.g., Astute, Top Force, etc.). This would put people like myself with a 4wd Dirt Thrasher outside of the 2wd cars who would otherwise not stand a chance, while also creating more space for a wider spectrum of the Tamiya library that would otherwise get crushed (either figuratively or literally) in the more competitive 2wd and 4wd classes. The only problem is schedule, plus some risk/uncertainty in actually filling that class with entries. Something else would have to go, as simply adding it would make a program that already runs a bit late run even later. Erich is always open to new ideas, though, so it never hurts to bring it up with him and see what he says. It would definitely give me a reason to buy a Super Astute, though...

As it stands, not counting the heavy metal and wheelie classes, we run two 4wd classes (standard and Classic), as well as Classic class, 2wd buggy, and stadium truck. If the Classic class were split into 2wd and 4wd variants (both silver can), then we'd have three 4wd classes (standard, classic, and classic silver can) and three 2wd classes (two buggy, one truck). Some may complain that it would crowd out the more "fun" classes like heavy metal and wheelie, but on on the other hand, anything running a silver can is a fun class, as it is extremely power limited and so the racing is much more casual.

[RCveteran]

Well I have two Super Astutes on the way so I will be ready. Me thinks though the Super Astute on a track without giant jumps like VONATS can keep pace if nothing else in the right hands (not me). For a non A-Mainer like me it won't matter against a top guy like you whatever I run and will be fun to run something different.

In other words if I set my hopes on a solid C main finish, Super Astute for the win. At least until they re re the Dynastorm. And I do think they should be silver can classes at a minimum.

[jwscab]

the classic class works out pretty well from what I've seen. having the super astute on the track, if you can run track tires, rather than the kit tires(like rc10 or jrx2 have to run), you really do have a great competitive platform if you are a decent driver. you get the benefit of traction and the efficiency of 2wd.

my biggest issue, up to this year, was that I really had no entry level cars ready to run with spares. so i'm a terrible driver with an rc10 with kit tires. Vonats this year though, I picked up a manta-ray, so i'm still a terrible driver but at least I'll put some sticky tires on it and maybe 4wd will keep me in the lane.

[RCveteran]

if you are a decent driver.

Decent enough to not embarrass myself sometimes and others not. That said have wanted to make it to VONATS for years, it is a long haul for me and will be going for the fun so dead last would not bother me at all as long as I put in some decent laps here and there.

How about a 2wd and 4wd "bone stock" Tamiya silver can class with tires being the only allowed mod. Would a Manta Ray be that far behind a Top Force with these specs, I doubt it. And if guys wanted to run a Hotshot or other type car so be it. In the spirit of this class if you enter a Hotshot against a Top Force you probably know you are behind to start with and who cares, the silver can will keep it slow enough that no one will notice and just have fun. As to 2wd, this would allow all sorts of Tamiya stuff to be run, Astute, Madcap, Dyna, Super Astute etc.

I tend to agree, with modern tires the Super Astute can probably hold its own in the right hands. The riskiest part is back up parts not being in everyone's pit box.

I guess in the end I am just looking for way to create a place for non RC10, XX's, XX4's to have a place to run with each other acknowledging there is a gap between a Hornet and Super Astute, or in 4wd a Hotshot and Top Force. Also, we know a Top Force versus a Yokomo 94 is not right in some way either. Seems a gap to fill so to speak between slow plastic tub and custom one off mid engine cars that show up as well.

That said, this is arguably the problem with racing and too many classes.

So I propose only two classes 2wd and 4wd silver can. Run what you brung, problem solved

[jwscab]

classic class is a handout motor, tamiya sport tuned, so essentially a primo silver can.

if i am there and you are a half decent racer, you probably won't finish last

[stickboy007]

I think such a class should extend beyond Tamiya chassis, as for example there are some older Kyosho Ultimas, or even the Triumph, which are better served in a silver can class than in the standard 2wd buggy class. If silver can (or sport tuned) is the only motor, then there's really no need to limit tires or other modifications, in my view. Even in the current implementation of the Classic class, I don't see why a 6-gear RC10 or a JRx must use original tires. I just run circles around them in a Dirt Thrasher. If they could run Electrons or Primes, then you'd have some real racing there. I suspect the original reason there was so that really good 2wd chassis like those don't have too much of an advantage over the plastic 2wd buggies like a Madcap, Fox, or Striker. However, I would tend to think that opening up the tire rules (and some of the chassis restrictions) would give us a net gain of entries. For example, I'd gladly trade one Madcap and one Outrage not entering the class over a handful of Super Astutes, Dyna Storms, Triumphs, and Ultimas joining the class. Even still, a Madcap would fare well in there, as it's basically a plastic Astute and it's all silver can anyway. So maybe in the end, rather than split Classic into a 2wd and 4wd class, it may be better to keep Classic more or less as-is, to have a place for the plastic stuff, and then have a separate silver can 2wd class that features "racing" chassis (but non-Stealth/XX/Pro-X/etc.) with any tire/mod allowed, but silver can motors only. That would get the 6-gear RC10s and JRx chassis out of the Classic class where they're really handicapped by the tire restriction, and into a 2wd class where they can race more closely with more of their contemporaries.

[RCveteran]

I think such a class should extend beyond Tamiya chassis, as for example there are some older Kyosho Ultimas, or even the Triumph, which are better served in a silver can class than in the standard 2wd buggy class. If silver can (or sport tuned) is the only motor, then there's really no need to limit tires or other modifications, in my view. Even in the current implementation of the Classic class, I don't see why a 6-gear RC10 or a JRx must use original tires. I just run circles around them in a Dirt Thrasher. If they could run Electrons or Primes, then you'd have some real racing there. I suspect the original reason there was so that really good 2wd chassis like those don't have too much of an advantage over the plastic 2wd buggies like a Madcap, Fox, or Striker. However, I would tend to think that opening up the tire rules (and some of the chassis restrictions) would give us a net gain of entries. For example, I'd gladly trade one Madcap and one Outrage not entering the class over a handful of Super Astutes, Dyna Storms, Triumphs, and Ultimas joining the class. Even still, a Madcap would fare well in there, as it's basically a plastic Astute and it's all silver can anyway. So maybe in the end, rather than split Classic into a 2wd and 4wd class, it may be better to keep Classic more or less as-is, to have a place for the plastic stuff, and then have a separate silver can 2wd class that features "racing" chassis (but non-Stealth/XX/Pro-X/etc.) with any tire/mod allowed, but silver can motors only. That would get the 6-gear RC10s and JRx chassis out of the Classic class where they're really handicapped by the tire restriction, and into a 2wd class where they can race more closely with more of their contemporaries.

I think you nailed it! No need to limit to Tamiya you are correct. The question is deciding what car fits if you exclude the RC10 or JRX's, so probably not excluded as many would say an Ultima Pro Xl or Dyna Storm as just as good as them so why should they get their own class. Or to your point, a Madcap is just a plastic Astute a Mud Thrasher a plastic Top Force. So in essence we could call it pre 1994 silver can 2wd and 4wd. Car must remain in near manual build condition (stock chassis configuration) to allow for some modern tweaks necessary to run them but not massive I converted my Madcap to big bores, mid engine mods, boosted brushless motor etc.

So, pre 1994, stock chassis (no shift in original layout), silver can 2wd and 4wd class. In other words trying to run the cars as close to original as possible with a nod given for modern tires.

[jwscab]

well, if you read the rules of classic class, you are essentially saying the same thing, minus the rc10/jrx2 tires. it's not restricted to tamiya, but it does restrict the model of rc10 and jrx2. In my mind, you don't gain much advantage in the mid grade kits whether they have a plastic tub or flat chassis, so that's kind of the only gray area. keeping stock transmissions and suspensions is more or less the idea....

All buggies are limited to cars produced 1995 or earlier.
Limited to “non-pro” and entry level style cars. Must have plastic tub chassis.*
All 1/10 Buggies, 2wd or 4wd, 2ws or 4ws allowed
Handout Tamiya RS540 motors only
Radio gear “electronics” are open.
Tires/wheels are open (including narrow front tires)
Li-Po batteries are allowed.
(Examples: Tamiya Hornet, Mauri Ninja, Royal Ripper)
*RULE EDIT – RC10 and JRX2 “True Vintage” cars are allowed in Classic but must meet the following criteria:
• NO TIRE TREATMENT ALLOWED.
• TRUE VINTAGE HARD COMPOUND TIRES ONLY.
• Must run no tire inserts and be covered with original RC10 Protech or JRX2 kit bodies.
• NO AFTERMARKET TRANSMISSIONS or other parts except turnbuckles allowed.
• RC10 must run in 1984/Classic version: short arm suspension, original jellybean sized wheels and hard compound vintage tires (Proline reissue tires are allowed).
• JRX2 must run in original version: 5 link suspension and hard compound vintage tires.

[RCveteran]

I think you are right, maybe this then.

All buggies are limited to cars produced 1992 or earlier.
All 1/10 Buggies, 2wd or 4wd, 2ws or 4ws allowed
Handout Tamiya RS540 motors only, ESC in blinky no boost mode (not sure you could even boost a silver can but just in case).
Radio gear “electronics” are open.
Tires/wheels are open but suggest a standard here too. Maybe Electrons.
Li-Po batteries are allowed.
NO AFTERMARKET TRANSMISSIONS, CHASSIS MUST REMAIN IN STOCK (Per Manual) CONFIGURATION with no modifications except turnbuckles allowed.


In essence a true silver can class for anything with modern tires run in it's original form and moved to 1992 as I still think when the XX's enter in you are entering an era of cars that are competitive still.

No one will elect to run a Hornet with this group I suspect but it would open a lot up and the silver can with stock chassis configuration would lead to some real action.

[scr8p]

I would like the classic class to go silver can. Everyone already has them, and most don't use them. Because of this class I have 2 sport tuned motors I'll never use again, and the class costs more because of paying for the handout.

[RCveteran]

If someone does not have one, they are under $10 and most guys probably do have a bunch laying around. To me the goal is to create a class that leaves out heavily modified RC10's and XX's, XRT's etc etc to allow someone with a regular Ultima, Astute, Madcap etc a place to be. No need to fight junky tires on clay, so modern tires, silver can and chassis must be as offered from factory set up. That should open it up nicely and allow many to feel like they can run a variety of cars.

It's essentially pre 1992, silver can, clay tires fine. The silver can will keep it really close whatever you run and making it 1992 leaves out the gray era transition cars I will call them.

That said someone could be still running a stealth RC10 but I'd put a good Super Astute or Ultima or something else with a silver can up against that and feel comfortable. I would put a top force against a YZ10 with a silver can etc etc. Again built per manual would leave out custom chassis builds.

It really is about pretty darn near stock cars with silver cans cut off at 1992 with good tires. We all acknowledge some slight mods might be needed to fit modern tires like hubs and driveshafts but that is not major reconfiguration.

So who wants to write the official class and propose to Erich?

[stickboy007]

I would put it more simply and suggest taking the RC10s and JRxs from Classic and putting them into a separate "Classic 2wd" class, with silver cans (or sport tuned...whatever...doesn't matter) and no tire limitation. I wouldn't put a "year" cutoff on it, as there is a bit of a gray area there (for example the JRx Pro SE ran all the way up until the XX release in 1994, I think?). Instead, I would just set it as anything *not* contained within the standard 2wd class. This would essentially mean anything that is not a Stealth RC10, XX, Pro-X, TRX-3, or Cougar 2000 would go into Classic 2wd. By definition, that would include the 6 gear RC10, the JRx series, Ultima, Triumph, Astute/Super Astute/Dyna Storm, and so forth. That would make it more straightforward to figure out which cars go where without complex rules.

[RCveteran]

I see that as viable but simple question, why would a super asttue or Triumph or others not fit in the regualr 2wd as well? What am I missing there? Is it the silver can that separates classci 2wd from other 2wd?

In other words if I ran 17.5t brushless in my Astute what keeps it out of regular 2wd class if someone chose?

[stickboy007]

Well right now there is nothing keeping that car out of the regular 2wd class. It's just outclassed by better cars more commonly used there. This is why the Classic 4wd class was created, in order to have a place for older 4wd buggies that don't stack up against cars like the XX4. That's not to say that you can't race your Classic 4wd chassis in the standard 4wd class (I did that this past year with a CAT 2000, which technically is in the Classic 4wd category), though. You'll just have a harder time with it.