Ten4.1
- mk-Zero
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Ten4.1
The Robinson Racing Ten4 shafts haven't been available for a little while. So I've decided to make my own. That opens up some possibilities, like adding a one-way bearing to the front pulley. I also found another source for the pullies that use readily available Imperial sized belts. I'm going to try a 1/8" belt/pulley system and see how it holds up. The first gen Ten4 used a 6mm belt, which is just a tad under 1/4". The thinner belts should result in a more efficient driveline.
While I'm at it, I plan to develop a new belt tensioner system. I might play with the front end geometry as well. All these changes together will be the Ten4.1 version. It should be pretty easy to convert an original Ten4 to a point-one for anyone who wants to.
So far I have developed the fixtures for pinning idler gears to extended shafts. I also turned down a 3/16" shaft to 4mm to fit metric one way bearings. I also had to make a grooving tool to put the e-clip groove near the end of the shaft to retain the bearings. I will ream out the ID's of the front pulleys for press fit with the metric one way bearings.
Shaft turned down to 4mm with the e-clip groove added. I made it to use standard RC10 e-clips. Two one way bearings are a perfect width for the pulleys.
While I'm at it, I plan to develop a new belt tensioner system. I might play with the front end geometry as well. All these changes together will be the Ten4.1 version. It should be pretty easy to convert an original Ten4 to a point-one for anyone who wants to.
So far I have developed the fixtures for pinning idler gears to extended shafts. I also turned down a 3/16" shaft to 4mm to fit metric one way bearings. I also had to make a grooving tool to put the e-clip groove near the end of the shaft to retain the bearings. I will ream out the ID's of the front pulleys for press fit with the metric one way bearings.
Shaft turned down to 4mm with the e-clip groove added. I made it to use standard RC10 e-clips. Two one way bearings are a perfect width for the pulleys.
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Re: Ten4.1
Nice work Brian
I like the sound of 1/8" wide belts, and the progress made on the one-way roller clutch.
Remember the shaft will need to be hardened so that the needle bearings do not wear it out, I recall Jeff mentioning this in another thread.
I have a love hate relationship with my ten4, it is awesome on asphalt, on outdoor astro with jumps well it gets complicated, it can be made to jump but has problems going round corners. Anyhow outdoor astro is complicated due to being a moving target regarding setup. I have not tried it on our clubs indoor astro track yet.
On dirt I only gave it a quick run but it wasn’t pretty. Anyhow finding a working setup is always hard. Right now I am grateful to have my RC10 and modern cars dialed in on the surfaces we have here.
The front end needs a little work. I shortened the wheel base by about 2mm by filling the rearward side of the C hub carrier and placing a washer in the front. This helped give the axles better clearance, they rubbed on the front shock tower. I also took the dremel to the carriers and to the steering arms to try get a little more steering lock.
I would also like to try to raise the steering arm in the C hub carrier.
I took apart the rear transmission and the robinson centre shaft is perfect, the top shaft is pretty much done...
So the new plastic center gear is the way to go, at least for the rear to avoid the metal on metal contact.
I'm looking forward to try these new updates, it would be cool if you could do a kit: belt, front pulley, rear pulley+one way, shaft, centre gear+pin.
I like the sound of 1/8" wide belts, and the progress made on the one-way roller clutch.
Remember the shaft will need to be hardened so that the needle bearings do not wear it out, I recall Jeff mentioning this in another thread.
I have a love hate relationship with my ten4, it is awesome on asphalt, on outdoor astro with jumps well it gets complicated, it can be made to jump but has problems going round corners. Anyhow outdoor astro is complicated due to being a moving target regarding setup. I have not tried it on our clubs indoor astro track yet.
On dirt I only gave it a quick run but it wasn’t pretty. Anyhow finding a working setup is always hard. Right now I am grateful to have my RC10 and modern cars dialed in on the surfaces we have here.
The front end needs a little work. I shortened the wheel base by about 2mm by filling the rearward side of the C hub carrier and placing a washer in the front. This helped give the axles better clearance, they rubbed on the front shock tower. I also took the dremel to the carriers and to the steering arms to try get a little more steering lock.
I would also like to try to raise the steering arm in the C hub carrier.
I took apart the rear transmission and the robinson centre shaft is perfect, the top shaft is pretty much done...
So the new plastic center gear is the way to go, at least for the rear to avoid the metal on metal contact.
I'm looking forward to try these new updates, it would be cool if you could do a kit: belt, front pulley, rear pulley+one way, shaft, centre gear+pin.
- mk-Zero
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Re: Ten4.1
Thanks for your input. Sorry to hear you're having handling woes with your Ten4. Mine I honestly think turns and jumps about as well as my b44.3, on high traction indoor clay... I'll let you know my setup a little later when I have a chance. I am running in LWB though, not sure if that helps or not. I would think SWB would turn better. Are you running short or long up front?
For the Ten4.1 I'm thinking about bringing down the kickup by about 5-10 deg, since modern 4wd cars usually run a lot less than the RC10's built in 30 Dec. IIRC the caster right now is at 20 deg, ie the caster blocks are -10 deg on a 30 deg kickup. I'll have to play around with the geometry a bit, and see if I can get it closer to a modern 4wd.
For the Ten4.1 I'm thinking about bringing down the kickup by about 5-10 deg, since modern 4wd cars usually run a lot less than the RC10's built in 30 Dec. IIRC the caster right now is at 20 deg, ie the caster blocks are -10 deg on a 30 deg kickup. I'll have to play around with the geometry a bit, and see if I can get it closer to a modern 4wd.
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Re: Ten4.1
I'm running the SWB version.
Like I said outdoor astro can be a moving target. In the morning it will be wet because of dew. Wet astro is a slippery afair. As the surface dries the level of grip improves passes the sweet spot and then becomes high grip as the surface heats up. High grip has so much grip that you will traction roll very easily.
Indoor astro is somewhat similar except that there is never any dew,it just warms up until grip is high.
Like I said outdoor astro can be a moving target. In the morning it will be wet because of dew. Wet astro is a slippery afair. As the surface dries the level of grip improves passes the sweet spot and then becomes high grip as the surface heats up. High grip has so much grip that you will traction roll very easily.
Indoor astro is somewhat similar except that there is never any dew,it just warms up until grip is high.
- mk-Zero
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Re: Ten4.1
I made a little progress on the Ten4.1 recently. First, the steering. I modified the bell cranks, caster blocks, and steering blocks to get more steering out of it.
The Ten4 setup was only getting about 35 degrees of steering at full lock. This was due to the bell cranks hitting the transmission case and at about the same time the steering blocks hit the caster bkocks. The Ten4.1 parts allow a full 45 degrees of steering The new bell cranks are a bit shorter and swing further before coming into contact with the transmission case I spent some time working on a new belt tensioner concept as well. The Ten4 tensioner system is a bit hard to adjust and there is nothing to keep the top and bottom of the belt from hitting itself. Here's the new concept, which uses two bearings, one to space the top and bottom of the belt apart, to other to tension the belt from the bottom The new tensioner mounts to the front tube screw like the original one, but is an arm instead of an eccentric, and the tension is adjusted with a screw that extends down to the pan (I'll put a "foot" of some sort on the bottom of the screw so it doesn't mar the pan). Adjusting that screw pivots the arm to raise or lower the bearing, which makes it really simple to fine-tune the belt tension.
I still have some details to work out on the new tensioner, but I think the concept will be a big improvement. Not only much easier to adjust belt tension, but it will keep the belt separated the whole length of the car
The Ten4 setup was only getting about 35 degrees of steering at full lock. This was due to the bell cranks hitting the transmission case and at about the same time the steering blocks hit the caster bkocks. The Ten4.1 parts allow a full 45 degrees of steering The new bell cranks are a bit shorter and swing further before coming into contact with the transmission case I spent some time working on a new belt tensioner concept as well. The Ten4 tensioner system is a bit hard to adjust and there is nothing to keep the top and bottom of the belt from hitting itself. Here's the new concept, which uses two bearings, one to space the top and bottom of the belt apart, to other to tension the belt from the bottom The new tensioner mounts to the front tube screw like the original one, but is an arm instead of an eccentric, and the tension is adjusted with a screw that extends down to the pan (I'll put a "foot" of some sort on the bottom of the screw so it doesn't mar the pan). Adjusting that screw pivots the arm to raise or lower the bearing, which makes it really simple to fine-tune the belt tension.
I still have some details to work out on the new tensioner, but I think the concept will be a big improvement. Not only much easier to adjust belt tension, but it will keep the belt separated the whole length of the car
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Re: Ten4.1
I think you are overthinking the tensioner. Just do what 3D printers do
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It's time to stand up to the bully. Support the companies that support the industry, not the ones that tear it down. Say no to Traxxas
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- mk-Zero
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Re: Ten4.1
Nice to see development on this. I read about it with great envy because I could not manage to fit it into my budget. Now, I could and there are so many parts to gather that are once again OOP. Still, looks cool.
- ra272
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Re: Ten4.1
Nice to see some evolutions, I had problem with the belt tension, but I think the chassis itself is way too flexy, I always have weird belt sounds under hard braking.
- mk-Zero
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Re: Ten4.1
Thanks guys. I think the new tensioner is going to be a big improvement, I was never super happy with the Ten4 tensioner. And FWIW, mine makes belt sounds on braking too. Doesn't seem to hurt anything, but is is a bit of an annoyance. I think the Ten4.1 tensioner will eliminate that.
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Re: Ten4.1
the one way bearing will fix that for sure
It's time to stand up to the bully. Support the companies that support the industry, not the ones that tear it down. Say no to Traxxas
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Re: Ten4.1
Following.
“It is more shameful to distrust our friends than to be deceived by them.”
― Confucius
― Confucius
- heretic
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Re: Ten4.1
Maybe you could make a front servo mount that serves as a tensioner? Something that could be adjusted with shims. Not very practical but probably cleaner.mk-Zero wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:29 pm
The new tensioner mounts to the front tube screw like the original one, but is an arm instead of an eccentric, and the tension is adjusted with a screw that extends down to the pan (I'll put a "foot" of some sort on the bottom of the screw so it doesn't mar the pan). Adjusting that screw pivots the arm to raise or lower the bearing, which makes it really simple to fine-tune the belt tension.
I still have some details to work out on the new tensioner, but I think the concept will be a big improvement. Not only much easier to adjust belt tension, but it will keep the belt separated the whole length of the car
Also, regarding that second tensioner; maybe you could use a low profile servo turned 180? That could give you clearance under the belt and maybe you wouldn't need the upper tensioner.
Interesting project for sure!
- mk-Zero
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Re: Ten4.1
good suggestions, thanks.
Part of the reason for needing to get the belt up is to clear the battery as well.
Part of the reason for needing to get the belt up is to clear the battery as well.
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